Gaugemaster UD panel controller fault

[cityofchester]

Hi.

I decided to upgrade my plastic Hornby controllers with a Gaugemaster dual panel controller (UD) which I fitted with the T1 transformer and the fitting kit. It worked for a few days then both outputs developed a fault. There was power going to both tracks (shown by the red light) but went out under load (ie when a locomotive was on the track). I sent it back to Gaugemaster who replaced both fets and it once again worked fine for a few days.

One side has now once again developed the same fault. Any ideas? 

My gut reaction is there maybe a fault with the transformer. The fault didn't develop over prolonged use and it is well ventilated so I don't think there is any over-heating. It worked perfectly for a time so it is unlikely it has been wired up incorrectly (which I am pretty sure is not the case).

My layout operated fine with my previous controller though I have a mixture of insulfrog and electrofrog points - I don't think I have made any errors with respect to these. The only problem I have had in the past is with a diamond insulfrog crossing where some locomotives appeared to short-circuit as they travelled over it - I fixed this by applying nail varnish to the section of rail immediately adjacent to the frog. Can repeated shorting cause this type of fault with a controller?

I'm obviously reluctant to return it once again to Gaugemaster if there is a problem elsewhere. Thank you in advance for any help.

 

John

[polybear]

 

Hi.

I decided to upgrade my plastic Hornby controllers with a Gaugemaster dual panel controller (UD) which I fitted with the T1 transformer and the fitting kit. It worked for a few days then both outputs developed a fault. There was power going to both tracks (shown by the red light) but went out under load (ie when a locomotive was on the track). I sent it back to Gaugemaster who replaced both fets and it once again worked fine for a few days.

One side has now once again developed the same fault. Any ideas? 

My gut reaction is there maybe a fault with the transformer. The fault didn't develop over prolonged use and it is well ventilated so I don't think there is any over-heating. It worked perfectly for a time so it is unlikely it has been wired up incorrectly (which I am pretty sure is not the case).

My layout operated fine with my previous controller though I have a mixture of insulfrog and electrofrog points - I don't think I have made any errors with respect to these. The only problem I have had in the past is with a diamond insulfrog crossing where some locomotives appeared to short-circuit as they travelled over it - I fixed this by applying nail varnish to the section of rail immediately adjacent to the frog. Can repeated shorting cause this type of fault with a controller?

I'm obviously reluctant to return it once again to Gaugemaster if there is a problem elsewhere. Thank you in advance for any help.

 

John

 

 

To my mind something like a model railway controller should be designed to cope with short circuits without damage.  I've not heard of Gaugemaster controllers ever being "fragile" - maybe speak to Gaugemaster for advise?

[cityofchester]

To my mind something like a model railway controller should be designed to cope with short circuits without damage.  I've not heard of Gaugemaster controllers ever being "fragile" - maybe speak to Gaugemaster for advise?

 

Thank you Polybear - I was under the same opinion especially after cheaper plastic Hornby ones produced no problems.

[davefrk]

Is there any chance that one track has a some connection to the other and forming even a 'slight' connection between the two sides of the duel controller. This could be a problem with a duel controller fed by one transformer. Has the transformer a double output, one for each side of the duel controller?

 

Dave.

Edited January 6, 2019 by davefrk

[cityofchester]

Is there any chance that one track has a some connection to the other and forming even a 'slight' connection between the two sides of the duel controller. This could be a problem with a duel controller fed by one transformer. Has the transformer a double output, one for each side of the duel controller?

 

Dave.

The transformer does have a dual output - it is the one recommended for that controller.

The two tracks are connected but not sure what you mean by 'forming a connection between the two side of the dual controller'. I have eliminated any shorting due to electrofrogs, the only area of concern is the diamond crossing as one line crosses over the other and some locos seem to short out here (which I tried to eliminate by extending the frogs). If you think this could be the problem then i'll just take them out but it's strange they've never caused a problem before with a controller.

 

Really what I'm trying to get to the bottom of is should occasional shorting cause a controller to damage and not work or should it be tripping out before this?

 

Thanks

[kevinlms]

The transformer does have a dual output - it is the one recommended for that controller.

The two tracks are connected but not sure what you mean by 'forming a connection between the two side of the dual controller'. I have eliminated any shorting due to electrofrogs, the only area of concern is the diamond crossing as one line crosses over the other and some locos seem to short out here (which I tried to eliminate by extending the frogs). If you think this could be the problem then i'll just take them out but it's strange they've never caused a problem before with a controller.

 

Really what I'm trying to get to the bottom of is should occasional shorting cause a controller to damage and not work or should it be tripping out before this?

 

Thanks

While the T1 does have separate outputs, have you run two independent wires to each controller? Attempting to common the 2 inputs will cause problems.

The nail varnish solution, isn't one I would use.

Edited January 7, 2019 by kevinlms

[spikey]

Really what I'm trying to get to the bottom of is should occasional shorting cause a controller to damage and not work or should it be tripping out before this?

 

No, and yes. 

[Pete the Elaner]

I don't think the track side of things is the issue.

I have seen layouts wired so their Gaugemaster controllers oppose each other when the points are set wrong   

The overload protection worked well & they suffered no permanent damage.

[cityofchester]

I don't think the track side of things is the issue.

I have seen layouts wired so their Gaugemaster controllers oppose each other when the points are set wrong 

The overload protection worked well & they suffered no permanent damage.

 

Thank you all for your replies. Since my original post I have been running my layout using my older controllers (one from 1987) and have had no problems. I have attached a very simplified diagram of my layout. Three controllers, I have shown where I have breaks in the track, all the points shown are insulfrogs. The green line is obviously the more controversial one. I have designed it so when running the green onto the other lines, I can reverse the points to keep the circuits separate (hence why I have included some of the sidings and passing loops in the diagram). If this is forgotten could this cause a problem to the controller? (I apologise for my lack of technical terms - I am completely self taught!). Any thoughts? Thanks in advance, John.

Edited January 10, 2019 by cityofchester

[cityofchester]

[Pete the Elaner]

Thank you all for your replies. Since my original post I have been running my layout using my older controllers (one from 1987) and have had no problems. I have attached a very simplified diagram of my layout. Three controllers, I have shown where I have breaks in the track, all the points shown are insulfrogs. The green line is obviously the more controversial one. I have designed it so when running the green onto the other lines, I can reverse the points to keep the circuits separate (hence why I have included some of the sidings and passing loops in the diagram). If this is forgotten could this cause a problem to the controller? (I apologise for my lack of technical terms - I am completely self taught!). Any thoughts? Thanks in advance, John.

 

I am intrigued by the bold comment. It sounds you are using the points to isolate the tracks from each other? This is not ideal although it should not be breaking controllers.

Have you used any insulating joiners anywhere?

[cityofchester]

I am intrigued by the bold comment. It sounds you are using the points to isolate the tracks from each other? This is not ideal although it should not be breaking controllers.

Have you used any insulating joiners anywhere?

 

Isolated joiners have been used where there is a break in the track as shown by the diagram. Why is it not ideal to use points to isolate tracks from each other? How else do people usually connect one track to another (ie by a simple cross over like the one seen near to the bridge where the green line runs over the other two)? Is it standard to use isolation points (on both rails) wherever they connect to another track? If this is the case I'm not sure on the benefit over reversing the points.

[kevinlms]

Isolated joiners have been used where there is a break in the track as shown by the diagram. Why is it not ideal to use points to isolate tracks from each other? How else do people usually connect one track to another (ie by a simple cross over like the one seen near to the bridge where the green line runs over the other two)? Is it standard to use isolation points (on both rails) wherever they connect to another track? If this is the case I'm not sure on the benefit over reversing the points.

Fact of the matter is, its best to make sure there is no possibility of shorts. If it requires some additional insulating gaps so be it.

 

Its much easier to do so, than repair damaged controllers.

 

Edit to add.

 

You need to take a look at this website, to understand the principles of block wiring.

 

https://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/index.html

 

Sorry about to go out, so can't specifically find the relevant page now.

Edited January 12, 2019 by kevinlms

[Tony Teague]

You need to add a lot more isolating rail joiners - specifically at every point where one controller's domain connects to another. Using the points to do the job only isolates one side of the track and so the opportunity for short circuits will be very high, especially if one transformer is powering controllers on more than one of the lines.Your green circuit bridges the other two (red & black) so the odds on everything working without better isolation look very low to me.

 

Tony

[Pete the Elaner]

Isolated joiners have been used where there is a break in the track as shown by the diagram. Why is it not ideal to use points to isolate tracks from each other? How else do people usually connect one track to another (ie by a simple cross over like the one seen near to the bridge where the green line runs over the other two)?

Very good questions which I believe are not asked enough.

 

Brian Lambert's website as linked to above has some very useful information.

 

I can never remember my 'heel & toe' end when talking about points. They should be fed from the '1 track' end. Feeding from the other end can cause shorts.

When connecting to another track, I isolate both & re-feed. For 2 or more controllers on a layout, I split it into sections then choose the controller from the section. This is often called cab control.

So if you then run from track 1 to track 2, select the same controller from both sections then drive it all the way on 1. Once it has cleared from track 1, de-select it.

 

It takes a little re-thinking about how you control, but preventing 2 controllers from ever opposing each other is something I consider to be good.

 

& for your layout, I would add isolating joiners to both rails at either end of the green section & also to both rails at the crossover between red & black., then add a DPDT switch to the green section to choose which controller to use.

You could keep the red & black sections permanently on their own controllers, but this means you would have to use one to drive the train into green then stop & switch controllers. You would also still have the need to speed match when running a train over the crossover between red & black.

I would prefer the flexibility of also having a DPDT switch each on red & black sections so you can run a train non-stop from one to the other through green by setting them all to 1 controller.