Rugby Union

[tigerburnie]

Ireland have had their provincial sport for decades and even now rely on government money to make ends meet, many in Ireland have said the IRFU made a huge mistake making the RDS too small and it should have been a second Croke Park in order to make their game closer to sustainable. ironically with money from BT, the Irish game could be in trouble too. Wales are having to totally re start their semi pro game as at the moment this season, many sides have been cancelling fixtures because they don't have enough players, the game in Wales is on it's knees, indeed in an article(I think it was)on Wales on line inferred the problem could be terminal for some very old established clubs.

Why did you mention the world cup?

Sir John Hall was a maverick who came in, got Rob Andrew to buy a side and success in the days before a salary cap and then realised he didn't have enough money and bailed having left Newcastle in a very sorry state and credit to them for digging their way out of the hole Hall left them in.

This statement that Premier league clubs cannot make money is another lie, last season, even after covid Northampton posted a small profit, Leicester and Exeter have also posted profits before covid and Leicester would have posted more profits, but instead they re-invested in a hotel and new stand to help with their profit margins. Bath have secured planning permission to build new stands at the Rec so they are investing in the future. Saracens have built a new ground, Bristol and Sale rent grounds but are investing in their future and both have I believe made offers to buy the football grounds they currently share. So to say the Premiership is unsustainable is not all the story, three clubs went to the wall, one was badly managed, one was poorly sold to would be asset strippers and another just ran out of support, rather like Jersey Reds. Of course Jersey has gone to the wall because the RFU would not tell them what is happening next year, so their investors, understandably walked away, they either don't know what they are doing or they just don't care and you would give them cart blanche to trash the entire game rather than just most of it. The RFU's handling of the Jones hiring and firing would make any potential investor run for the hills. Then just just polish off any notion of the RFU ever taking over the clubs, don't forget CVC own a substantial share holding in PRL and they would cost more to buy out than any of the clubs.

[rockershovel]

Had a pint at the rugby club this morning, went down to fetch a neighbours lad after juniors. 

 

General consensus at the bar was that 2 seasons lockdown has killed the game at the lower levels by breaking the habit of going out for social purposes. Then there's all the problems of terrifying people about sharing showers and changing rooms... 

 

 

[rockershovel]

1 hour ago, tigerburnie said:

Ireland have had their provincial sport for decades and even now rely on government money to make ends meet, many in Ireland have said the IRFU made a huge mistake making the RDS too small and it should have been a second Croke Park in order to make their game closer to sustainable. ironically with money from BT, the Irish game could be in trouble too. Wales are having to totally re start their semi pro game as at the moment this season, many sides have been cancelling fixtures because they don't have enough players, the game in Wales is on it's knees, indeed in an article(I think it was)on Wales on line inferred the problem could be terminal for some very old established clubs.

Why did you mention the world cup?

Sir John Hall was a maverick who came in, got Rob Andrew to buy a side and success in the days before a salary cap and then realised he didn't have enough money and bailed having left Newcastle in a very sorry state and credit to them for digging their way out of the hole Hall left them in.

This statement that Premier league clubs cannot make money is another lie, last season, even after covid Northampton posted a small profit, Leicester and Exeter have also posted profits before covid and Leicester would have posted more profits, but instead they re-invested in a hotel and new stand to help with their profit margins. Bath have secured planning permission to build new stands at the Rec so they are investing in the future. Saracens have built a new ground, Bristol and Sale rent grounds but are investing in their future and both have I believe made offers to buy the football grounds they currently share. So to say the Premiership is unsustainable is not all the story, three clubs went to the wall, one was badly managed, one was poorly sold to would be asset strippers and another just ran out of support, rather like Jersey Reds. Of course Jersey has gone to the wall because the RFU would not tell them what is happening next year, so their investors, understandably walked away, they either don't know what they are doing or they just don't care and you would give them cart blanche to trash the entire game rather than just most of it. The RFU's handling of the Jones hiring and firing would make any potential investor run for the hills. Then just just polish off any notion of the RFU ever taking over the clubs, don't forget CVC own a substantial share holding in PRL and they would cost more to buy out than any of the clubs.

Meanwhile the RWC is selling out 40,000 seat grounds at anything upwards of €200 a ticket, PLUS the TV revenues and sponsorship... 

 

You do realise that at 85,000 capacity paying £160 and upwards, plus tv revenues and sponsorship the 6N is worth more than the entire Prem season? England players are trousering £20,000 a match. 

 

The clubs haven't a hope. If they seriously offend investors at that level, they won't see which way it went and they won't be any part of it. 

[tigerburnie]

3 hours ago, rockershovel said:

Meanwhile the RWC is selling out 40,000 seat grounds at anything upwards of €200 a ticket, PLUS the TV revenues and sponsorship... 

 

You do realise that at 85,000 capacity paying £160 and upwards, plus tv revenues and sponsorship the 6N is worth more than the entire Prem season? England players are trousering £20,000 a match. 

 

The clubs haven't a hope. If they seriously offend investors at that level, they won't see which way it went and they won't be any part of it. 

You are wavering from the point, the RFU are themselves forecasting loses and you are promoting them as saviours, really cannot see how that works and going back to world cup, I thought we were debating the RFU and the PRL, nothing to do with the World Cup, though clearly the World Cup performance is something the RFU are hoping is a smoke stream they can hide behind, if they lose again this a weekend, you can expect a tsunami of criticism aimed at England whilst the RFU go and hide in the gin cabinet.

[rockershovel]

Oh, merciful heavens. 

 

The RFU are beyond useless. So are the Prem. Thirty years of professionalisation has left the game in complete disarray at every level. 

 

But never fear, because a small handful of clubs are showing small profits. 

 

The national squad, for my money will squeak through to the last four today, by their long-perfected skill at doing the necessary minimum at huge expense and the whole absurd cycle will begin again. 

 

There are signs of necessary change. Whether this can he achieved with the same people in charge, at RFU or club level, I greatly doubt. 

 

Good day to you, sir. Don't let me detain you further. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by rockershovel

[EddieB]

Amazing what the RWC throws up.  Two games, each worthy of the final today.  Two quarter finals tomorrow.

 

Edit: I was thinking that the France v South Africa and Ireland v New Zealand were both today.  Silly mistake, like not watching the penalty kick timer.

Edited October 14, 2023 by EddieB

[tigerburnie]

5 hours ago, rockershovel said:

Oh, merciful heavens. 

 

The RFU are beyond useless. So are the Prem. Thirty years of professionalisation has left the game in complete disarray at every level. 

 

But never fear, because a small handful of clubs are showing small profits. 

 

The national squad, for my money will squeak through to the last four today, by their long-perfected skill at doing the necessary minimum at huge expense and the whole absurd cycle will begin again. 

 

There are signs of necessary change. Whether this can he achieved with the same people in charge, at RFU or club level, I greatly doubt. 

 

Good day to you, sir. Don't let me detain you further. 

You don't detain me, but you do continue to make rash statements that are un substantiated, the game at every level, do you actually follow the game at every level? Have you watched any local or National league rugby at all in recent times. The game in Wales at grass roots is in serious trouble, indeed they cannot sell out the National stadium for most games, but in England, below the Championship the game continues to thrive and grow, new clubs, like my old club, climbing the leagues and improving their facilities for use by the local communities. Mini and junior rugby growing, a new colts team now formed on the back of the mini and juniors success and players graduating up to a semi pro contract and now playing in the National leagues, this is not unique just to my old club. Ellis Genge told a group of us of his rise from a council estate in Bristol to a thriving local rugby club as a kid, kept him out of trouble and ended up giving him a career.

I get you have your opinions, which of course is your prerogative, but don't dis those who are, against a back drop of at best indifference from the RFU, keeping the game alive. You clearly don't support a Premiership club, your vitriol for them is there for all to see. Can I suggest you find a local club and go support them, you will find it most enlightening. I live in Scotland now, but manage to go watch some rugby when ill health and lousy weather does not prevent me from so doing.

[rockershovel]

I hope your old club won't go through what my old club did; the attempted move to semi-professionslism split the Club, ending in an acrimonious AGM in which the juniors (or more correctly, the parents) declined to further support the Committee's folies de grandeur at 1st XV level and most of the lower level adult players divided bitterly amongst themselves. 

 

It wasn't much fun and time has not proved a healer. 

 

[tigerburnie]

That is sad, it's not Stourbridge by any chance? My old club was Wigston, who merged with Westleigh to become Leicester Lions, currently sat at the bottom of Nat 1, but as I write they are 21-7 up at half time against league leaders Rams from Reading, just hope they can keep the performance going.

[rockershovel]

Moving on.... Wales v Argentina, what a corker and I think, a well deserved win. 

 

 

 

[EddieB]

10 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

Moving on.... Wales v Argentina, what a corker and I think, a well deserved win. 

Serves to highlight George Ford’s game management - England would have been similarly beaten had Farrell been selectable.

[rockershovel]

2 hours ago, EddieB said:

Serves to highlight George Ford’s game management - England would have been similarly beaten had Farrell been selectable.

I also feel that Farrell tends to bring out the worst in penalty-prone players like Itoje and Cole 

 

He may be popular with the players, but that isn't necessarily a good thing. Carling certainly wasn't universally admired by his team, but he led them to two Grand Slams. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by rockershovel

[tigerburnie]

It was three grand slams

William David Charles Carling OBE (born 12 December 1965) is an English former rugby union player. He was England's youngest captain, aged 22, and won 72 caps from 1988 to 1996, captaining England 59 times. Under his captaincy, England won the Five Nations Grand Slam in 1991, 1992 and 1995, and reached the 1991 World Cup final.

[rockershovel]

2 hours ago, tigerburnie said:

It was three grand slams

William David Charles Carling OBE (born 12 December 1965) is an English former rugby union player. He was England's youngest captain, aged 22, and won 72 caps from 1988 to 1996, captaining England 59 times. Under his captaincy, England won the Five Nations Grand Slam in 1991, 1992 and 1995, and reached the 1991 World Cup final.

I'm not sure about the respective records on pitch, but I rather doubt that Farrell Jr will be the subject of scurrilous rumours in the media regarding the Princess of Wales

[whart57]

Unlikely but it might make the present Princess of Wales a bit more interesting

[Gareth Collier]

England looking comfortable. Now where's the self destruct button? Found it!

[Gareth Collier]

Never worried 😉

[rockershovel]

2 hours ago, Gareth Collier said:

England looking comfortable. Now where's the self destruct button? Found it!

Fiji certainly made a game of it. Look forward to seeing more of them next autumn.

 

Classic England game - everything going sideways when there was no real need, but doing just enough when it mattered. Nothing to challenge Farrell 's game management skills. A drop goal... I do like to see them. Smith looks better every time. 

 

Still can't feel confident about next week. 

[St Enodoc]

So England will retain their record as the only NH side to win a RWC.

[The Fatadder]

Who’d have thought the only unbeaten team left at the semi final stage and the only NH team would be England…..

 

 

Going to take a massive step up to avoid a hammering against SA.   Hopefully it’s about time the SA have some bad luck with the ref…

[2750Papyrus]

I had given up watching RU on TV but a dose of Covid meant I watched all 4 quarter finals, and enjoyed them thoroughly.  Good rugby, close results and excellent ITV commentary teams.  Almost made up for having to  miss the MK exhibition!

[BoD]

12 hours ago, The Fatadder said:

Who’d have thought  …….  ….. the only NH team would be England.

That was because some members of the Northern Hemisphere,  British, I mean English press had confidently forecast an all Northern Hemisphere semi-final line up.

 

Idiots.

[rockershovel]

2 hours ago, BoD said:

That was because some members of the Northern Hemisphere,  British, I mean English press had confidently forecast an all Northern Hemisphere semi-final line up.

 

Idiots.

I would have loved  to see an Ireland / France final.... its entirely possible that England will come home with bronze medals, having beaten Argentina again. 

 

Farrell will still be captain when he is forty.....

[MJI]

One thing which i sstill up in air and brought to attention by the Womens team closing, is what is happeneing with Worcester Rugby?

 

I hope it is not a case of London Wasps playing there instead.

[The Fatadder]

42 minutes ago, MJI said:

One thing which i sstill up in air and brought to attention by the Womens team closing, is what is happeneing with Worcester Rugby?

 

I hope it is not a case of London Wasps playing there instead.

I think that was the original intention, until as with everything else Wasps managed to mess it up (if i recall failure to negotiate with their outstanding creditors).  So ended up getting their Championship slot revoked and starting again at the bottom of the pyramid.  I do wonder with Woucester getting their Championship slot revoked as well the future of Sixways will be a housing / industrial development...