Rugby Union

[letterspider]

Having lived near to Wasps original grounds in Sudbury, you can see the complete mismanagement firsthand.

They sold their grounds off to developers upon the condition they could have an adjacent training pitch.

This meant the Borough allocated them 1/3 of the adjoining park to be fenced off.

I have never in decades seen that pitch in use, it remains overgrown to this day - effectively stolen from the local taxpayers.

[The Fatadder]

Did not expect to come out of that game feeling robbed.

 

Farrell’s mouthing off at the ref cost us the game, though some rather suspect refereeing of the final scrum also didn’t help.  Always feel nervous when there is a southern hemisphere referee given they always seem to make mistakes at the scrum….  That final one it was pretty clear that SA were at fault.   But of course it wouldn’t  have mattered if that earlier pen had been from the original position given it would have unlikely been a score….

 

the earlier scrum on the 5m line was also a very dubious call In SAs favour.  Just hope they don’t get lucky with decision making for a third week in a row against NZ

[rockershovel]

33 minutes ago, The Fatadder said:

Did not expect to come out of that game feeling robbed.

 

Farrell’s mouthing off at the ref cost us the game, though some rather suspect refereeing of the final scrum also didn’t help.  Always feel nervous when there is a southern hemisphere referee given they always seem to make mistakes at the scrum….  That final one it was pretty clear that SA were at fault.   But of course it wouldn’t  have mattered if that earlier pen had been from the original position given it would have unlikely been a score….

 

the earlier scrum on the 5m line was also a very dubious call In SAs favour.  Just hope they don’t get lucky with decision making for a third week in a row against NZ

Another unfortunate Farrell habit, when kicking the ball into the corner for the winger to chase in and score, he consistently over-kicks. Did it twice in quick succession tonight. 

 

Vunipola has been a spent force for some time, main contribution tonight was two knock-ons for at least 3 points. 

 

Genge and Sinckler were completely outclassed in the set scrum. 

 

We weren't robbed, although we might well have pipped SA at the post. Too many obvious shortfalls when it mattered. 

 

I'd like to think that next season will start with a complete clear-out of the squad. Unfortunately I suspect tonight's performance will result in a consolidation. 

 

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by rockershovel

[The Fatadder]

25 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

Unfortunately I suspect tonight's performance will result in a consolidation

That is my biggest concern, it’s been clear for a while that it’s time to move on form certain players, particularly Farrell and vunipola

 

Still, it was fun believing for 75 minutes….

[St Enodoc]

Well, as sorry as I am to see England miss out, perhaps at last the best ref in the world - my old mate Wayne Barnes - will get the final.

[rockershovel]

Looking ahead, the main weak spot in the England squad looks like prop. Stuart doesn't impress me. Cole and Marler must be near the end and Genge and Sinckler seem well off the pace. 

[teaky]

England need to find a whole new front row(s) and get them to work a.s.a.p. to be ready for the next World Cup.  Even if some of the current ones are not planning to retire yet, they are unlikely to be operating at the required level in four years time.  Genge might be around then and he's good in open play but he struggles to impose himself against top class opposition.  Sinckler never seems to click these days.  Experience has always mattered more in the front row so some young guns need as much international level exposure as they can be afforded.

 

Vunipola is a waste of space these days.  It would be great if a hefty replacement could be found (i.e. a more classic no.8) but, failing that, working with a mobile set of three back rowers appears to work.  Laws is going to need replacing soon too.  We don't seem too short of talent in the back row.

 

I was impressed (again) by Martin.  For me, he has moved ahead of Chessum now.  (Which I felt was the case before the World Cup anyway.)

 

Steward put in a good stint.  I reckon that he needs time in the gym to build some thigh muscles and time with a sprint coach.  If he can add some attacking threat to his (attack and defence) aerial skills he will be difficult to dislodge from the 15 shirt, especially when Smith returns to 10 to replace Farrell.  Mind you, Watson will return and he operates equally well in any of the back three positions.

 

Centre may well be OK for a while and perhaps just needs one or two young guns to be pressuring.  However, Marchant's move to France will be a loss.

 

There are some wingers ready to step up already.  May looks to have got his act together again but is past his best and I always preferred Daly when he played at 13.

 

Borthwick and his coaching team now have a challenge to mould a team in time for the Six Nations and then to put together a larger squad for Australia in four years.

 

I'm eager to see what happens.

 

 

[rockershovel]

I was very impressed with Earl.

 

Arundel hardly got a look in and will only improve. 

 

I suspect that some sort of "fix" will be engineered to enable Marchant to be there. 

 

The front row is a good question. Cole and Marler are past their peak and I don't feel that any of the younger generation look the part. Sinckler, I think is a "Jones player" and won't improve; whatever may be said about Jones, he has a great ability to get the best out of "difficult" players like Hartley, Sinckler and Farrell. 

 

Someone give Farrell a coaching job, soon; preferably somewhere else. He is past his best on the field and an outright liability at times. I suspect that quite a few people see him in the Andy Farrell / Shaun Edwards role and he will be undroppable until that happens

Edited October 22, 2023 by rockershovel

[tigerburnie]

Joe Hayes promised to replace Dan Cole at Tigers, but hasn't quite made it yet, but is close and improving as is Martin Whitcombe on the other side of the front row. Nic Dolly is a hooker who is doing well, but is behind Montoya at Tigers, so not getting many starts since coming back from injury.

[St Enodoc]

On 22/10/2023 at 09:41, St Enodoc said:

Well, as sorry as I am to see England miss out, perhaps at last the best ref in the world - my old mate Wayne Barnes - will get the final.

Barnesy will indeed ref the final, at his fifth World Cup. Excellent!

[rockershovel]

11 hours ago, tigerburnie said:

Joe Hayes promised to replace Dan Cole at Tigers, but hasn't quite made it yet, but is close and improving as is Martin Whitcombe on the other side of the front row. Nic Dolly is a hooker who is doing well, but is behind Montoya at Tigers, so not getting many starts since coming back from injury.

England need two pairs of top-class props for the next RWC and I don't feel that any of the current batch qualify. 

 

The other worrying thing is the captaincy. Lawes won't be around much longer and Farrell will be too old by 2027. Ford ... same issue. But who follows? There is a lack of obvious contenders. Johnson was established at club and Lions levels before pulling on the white Jersey as captain; Carling was an obvious choice, Dallaglio had that "I'm in charge" air. Corry was established as a captain. 

[tigerburnie]

Ellis Genge has gone backwards at a great rate of knots at Bristol, no idea what they have done to him, as Leicester skipper, he was ready made to skipper England, but not at the moment.

[grandadbob]

Courtney Lawes has announced his international retirement after World Cup. 

[teaky]

1 hour ago, grandadbob said:

Courtney Lawes has announced his international retirement after World Cup. 

I saw that earlier.  Great player.  I often marvelled at the way opponents thought they'd escaped his clutches only to discover they were still well in range.

 

In the short term I expect England will be playing with two opensides.  Unless they put Chessum at 6 to compensate for Earl's lack of height in the lineout (not that Vunipola could jump).

[teaky]

Captain:

 

Itoje?  He already runs the lineouts and, if not first on the teamsheet, can't be far off.

 

Ludlum is Northampton Saints captain and with Laws retirement is more likely to be picked (when uninjured) rather than losing out to Curry at 7.

[tigerburnie]

England will miss Courtney, a grafter who always gives 100 percent.

[teaky]

Announcement from World Rugby: https://www.world.rugby/news/885619/historic-rugby-calendar-reform-to-supercharge-reach-and-competitiveness

 

A number of positives in there, particularly things that will provide the pacific nations with more game time thereby making them (even) more competitive plus a second world tier which ought to result in similar improvements for teams like Portugal, Georgia, Uruguay and Chile who played well recently.  Over all, clear structure ought to benefit everyone.  It will be interesting to see what the home nations' unions do in response to this.

 

Out of curiosity I checked the current rankings and 24th place is held by Hong Kong China (China are 84th).  Russia are 25th, so just miss out - what a shame!

Edited October 24, 2023 by teaky

[rockershovel]

Mixed feelings about that. 

 

I can't summon any real interest in the womens game. I'd rather see the A Intrnatiobals back, or U20s getting a proper airing. 

 

The idea of a "top 12" composing 6N, SANZAR plus two sounds like a recognition of the obvious. 

 

Expand the RWC to 24 nations, definitely not. Too big already and God knows what the seeding and pools would look like. 

 

What happens if Italy get relegated? Do they stay in 6N? 

 

This reads like "more TV revenue at all cost to the the sport" 

[whart57]

20 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

What happens if Italy get relegated? Do they stay in 6N?

 

Who knows, but that issue would get resolved reasonably sensibly. The one that would cause real fur to fly would be if Scotland or Wales fell through the trapdoor, not impossible scenarios.

[whart57]

I read this morning that Wasps are sizing up a move into Kent, not a county noted for any great rugby prowess or indeed much love for the game. So for a club that started out in London's western suburbs, played at QPR's and Wycombe Wanderers football grounds, moved to Coventry, now starting out again in Worcester another 200 mile move would appear to make absolute sense. And given that they would have to shift from the pyramid under National League 2 West to National League 2 South's pyramid that would be fun as well.

 

Whatever they are on at Wasps I do think they ought to bottle it and sell it to cheer up a distinctly miserable world.

[teaky]

1 hour ago, whart57 said:

I read this morning that Wasps are sizing up a move into Kent, not a county noted for any great rugby prowess or indeed much love for the game. So for a club that started out in London's western suburbs, played at QPR's and Wycombe Wanderers football grounds, moved to Coventry, now starting out again in Worcester another 200 mile move would appear to make absolute sense. And given that they would have to shift from the pyramid under National League 2 West to National League 2 South's pyramid that would be fun as well.

 

Whatever they are on at Wasps I do think they ought to bottle it and sell it to cheer up a distinctly miserable world.

Perhaps they're hoping to recruit Jersey Reds fans?  😀

I can see the Wasps fixtures being popular with the other teams and fans in the league.  🤭

[teaky]

2 hours ago, rockershovel said:

Mixed feelings about that. 

 

I can't summon any real interest in the womens game. I'd rather see the A Intrnatiobals back, or U20s getting a proper airing. 

 

The idea of a "top 12" composing 6N, SANZAR plus two sounds like a recognition of the obvious. 

 

Expand the RWC to 24 nations, definitely not. Too big already and God knows what the seeding and pools would look like. 

 

What happens if Italy get relegated? Do they stay in 6N? 

 

This reads like "more TV revenue at all cost to the the sport" 

I knew you'd like it.  😃

 

I understand that there will be 6 pools of 4.  Top 2 from each pool go through plus 4 best 3rd place teams.  Then a round of 16 - pools again, I think.  Then quarter finals etc.  They are sticking with the minimum 6 days between matches.  There has already been a lot of talk about selection being moved to, say, a year before the competition, so I can't see why they wouldn't do that as it is a sensible compromise.

 

[rockershovel]

7 hours ago, whart57 said:

 

Who knows, but that issue would get resolved reasonably sensibly. The one that would cause real fur to fly would be if Scotland or Wales fell through the trapdoor, not impossible scenarios.

Good question. Both are lacking the necessary strength in depth to play extended tournaments, but are capable of top class rugby. 

[rockershovel]

5 hours ago, teaky said:

I knew you'd like it.  😃

 

I understand that there will be 6 pools of 4.  Top 2 from each pool go through plus 4 best 3rd place teams.  Then a round of 16 - pools again, I think.  Then quarter finals etc.  They are sticking with the minimum 6 days between matches.  There has already been a lot of talk about selection being moved to, say, a year before the competition, so I can't see why they wouldn't do that as it is a sensible compromise.

 

So, basically one game that matters in the first three-week pool round, then another three-week round the same?

 

Pure greed

[The Fatadder]

6 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

So, basically one game that matters in the first three-week pool round, then another three-week round the same?

 

Pure greed

they would be better off playing an extra round for the tier 2 nations to reduce it down from 5 per group to the current 4, then the real teams enter the tournament (akin to how the FA cup weeds out the majority of the lower league teams before the premiership gets involved)

 

of course the viewing figures for that extra round wouldn’t be great…..