Rugby Union

[whart57]

15 hours ago, tigerburnie said:

I don't recall any either, well not sober ones...............................

 

At least two of the Observer's sports writers did.

[tigerburnie]

Potential is there, but after years of neglect, it will take years to build a new team.

[rockershovel]

On 05/02/2024 at 14:25, tigerburnie said:

On that showing Italy are the most improved performers, England used a get out of jail card in Rome, they so easily may have lost that game.

Nonsense. They gave Italy two soft tries in quick succession, adapted and dominated the last 55 minutes of the game. 

 

Had they not made a basic schoolboy mistake in extra time, exacerbated by  having seemingly  forgotten that Dingwall was still wandering around the backfield like a lost sheep, they would have come off win a 13 point margin and no-one would be saying "Italy nearly won"

 

 

[whart57]

15 hours ago, rockershovel said:

Nonsense. They gave Italy two soft tries in quick succession, adapted and dominated the last 55 minutes of the game. 

 

Had they not made a basic schoolboy mistake in extra time, exacerbated by  having seemingly  forgotten that Dingwall was still wandering around the backfield like a lost sheep, they would have come off win a 13 point margin and no-one would be saying "Italy nearly won"

 

 

 

But England did give up those opportunities to Italy. I've read several commentators give the opinion that this happens when England try and play a more expansive game. Perhaps it is inherent that when a team takes risks to win with style that a notionally weaker team can exploit those risks. The test will come when those opportunities come the way of a better side than Italy.

[rockershovel]

18 hours ago, whart57 said:

 

But England did give up those opportunities to Italy. I've read several commentators give the opinion that this happens when England try and play a more expansive game. Perhaps it is inherent that when a team takes risks to win with style that a notionally weaker team can exploit those risks. The test will come when those opportunities come the way of a better side than Italy.

The last try is easily remedied. It needs a large placard in the dressing room saying "do not do this stupid thing". I was taught since my earliest playing days that "red clock" time is a very dangerous period when concentration lapses among some, though not all players and surprise scores are common. 

 

The goal should be to end the game as quickly as possible. By scoring if possible, but quickly. 

 

Otherwise.... England are chronically unable to finish. A team with the levels of possession shown on Saturday should be cruising to a solid win. This is nothing new. Borthwick won't fix it; it is a consequence of the static, stagnant Prem. 

 

It's also common for England to repeat basic mistakes in quick succession. Their whole thinking process seems to operate on some kind of "I tell you three times" basis. 

[whart57]

3 hours ago, rockershovel said:

The last try is easily remedied. It needs a large placard in the dressing room saying "do not do this stupid thing". I was taught since my earliest playing days that "red clock" time is a very dangerous period when concentration lapses among some, though not all players and surprise scores are common. 

 

The goal should be to end the game as quickly as possible. By scoring if possible, but quickly. 

 

Otherwise.... England are chronically unable to finish. A team with the levels of possession shown on Saturday should be cruising to a solid win. This is nothing new. Borthwick won't fix it; it is a consequence of the static, stagnant Prem. 

 

It's also common for England to repeat basic mistakes in quick succession. Their whole thinking process seems to operate on some kind of "I tell you three times" basis. 

 

What makes "red clock" time dangerous is the losing side throwing caution to the winds, and forcing mistakes. It may be the aim to end the game quickly, but how. Kick for touch, sure, but don't ask a player who rarely, if ever, kicks to do it. Under pressure your occasional kicker can too easily screw the ball and hand possession over. A "stupid thing" in your definition. So get the ball to your full back or No.10. Except the opposition will be expecting that and the known kickers will be marked. A tackle and a turnover would be another of your "stupid things". The losing side have no need for defence in depth, so they will have everyone up putting pressure on. The calculation on whether giving away a penalty by making a risky intervention in a ruck is better than conceding a try changes too.

 

Possession is good to have, but how good depends on where that possession is. You can't score from your own half, rare 60 yard penalties and breakaway tries excepted. Possession inside the opponents 22 is good, but that is a crowded area, crowded with big blokes who these days have a bit of speed as well. What with fitness levels today and plenty of replacements on the bench, the old attritional methods don't work so well. Anyone can bulk up in the gym. The creativity needed to thread away through is a rare talent, and you are probably right, the Premiership doesn't nurture it.

[rockershovel]

If you are 10 points up, inside your own ten yard line and the clock is red, pass the ball backwards and kick it over your own goal line. There is almost no risk, it is entirely legal and you have won by ten points. 

 

If you have a kickable penalty at 79 mins plus, have a go but make sure it goes over the back line - this is more important than scoring in these circumstances. It is better to go wide and out, than risk it rebounding from the posts. 

 

If the ref allows the restart, because you never know, receive the kickoff and boot it off the pitch. 

 

These are all so basic that Test players should not need telling, the equivalent of the "quarterback kneel" to run out the clock. 

 

 

[rockershovel]

On 07/02/2024 at 12:05, whart57 said:

 

But England did give up those opportunities to Italy. I've read several commentators give the opinion that this happens when England try and play a more expansive game. Perhaps it is inherent that when a team takes risks to win with style that a notionally weaker team can exploit those risks. The test will come when those opportunities come the way of a better side than Italy.

It would be more correct to say that when England try to play an open game, which they tend not to do particularly well, their advantage is lost. 

 

They also have the bad habit of allowing Italy to slow the game down. I remember a particularly turgid game at Twickenham like this, ending 16-0 or so with supporters already streaming out if the ground

[The Fatadder]

Enjoyably evening at the Rec last night watching England U20s take a part the Welsh.   Nice to see some dominant forward play particularly at the scrum, just walking through the welsh pack.   dreaming of a similar performance this afternoon, but no doubt it will be a lot closer.

[Southernman46]

Another microscopically close game in Paris (no spoilers from me) - thoroughly enjoyable 👍

[Deano]

England to beat the “Come back kings” of rugby. 🤞

[BoD]

2 hours ago, Southernman46 said:

Another microscopically close game in Paris (no spoilers from me) - thoroughly enjoyable 👍

Which game were you watching in Paris? 😉

 

More seriously though, that passage of play where the ball was kicked from 22 to 22 and back again seemed to go on for ever.  I know that, sadly, it is part of the game these days but today’s instalment was just silly.

[tigerburnie]

I bet the Southern Hemisphere sides wished the world cup was just around the corner, sheesh they are all poor, I know there are a lot of excuses, new coaches/players retired blah, blah, blah. With England you really can see just how much  damage the RFU let Jones do to the national side, it'll take a couple of years at least to turn the ship around. Two best players both play for Leicester, Steward and Reffelll, without them both sides really would have  been dire. A sad reflection that we don't have a tight head to replace Dan Cole, the Welsh scrum gave up when he took the field, they seemed scared of him and Genge.

[BoD]

6 minutes ago, tigerburnie said:

A sad reflection that we don't have a tight head to replace Dan Cole

Or anyone else as good as Joe Marler at winding up the opposition.  I can’t remember how long ago I first saw him doing it but, gosh, he was and still is a master at it.

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, tigerburnie said:

I bet the Southern Hemisphere sides wished the world cup was just around the corner, sheesh they are all poor, I know there are a lot of excuses, new coaches/players retired blah, blah, blah. With England you really can see just how much  damage the RFU let Jones do to the national side, it'll take a couple of years at least to turn the ship around. Two best players both play for Leicester, Steward and Reffelll, without them both sides really would have  been dire. A sad reflection that we don't have a tight head to replace Dan Cole, the Welsh scrum gave up when he took the field, they seemed scared of him and Genge.

I'd be scared of Genge, with or without Cole.

[rockershovel]

I don't mind admitting that England won't be seeing the inside of my wallet in any foreseeable future. 

 

That was atrocious. 

 

Any side reaching the half having conceded a penalty try for an obvious foul, two yellow cards for the same offence, conceded a soft try the same as their last outing and been charged down at a conversion (and let's be clear, Ford was obviously time-wasting during the yellow card period) should NOT be enjoying an unchanged selection from last time out.

 

England supporters' patience now expired. 

 

P5 W2 L3 this year, I think. 

[Dave Hunt]

18 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

I'd be scared of Genge, with or without Cole.

 

I once had a chat with Genge and Cole at a Welford Road do and either of them would terrify me - and I'm 6ft 3 and 15 1/2 stone.

 

Dave

[tigerburnie]

I don't know either of them but I did know quite a few Tigers back in the day, Martin Johnson is still a player I would not like to play against, he is even menacing eating a bag of crips at the bar, England need some one like him urgently.

[Deeps]

49 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

I once had a chat with Genge and Cole at a Welford Road do and either of them would terrify me - and I'm 6ft 3 and 15 1/2 stone.

I think a quote from the Ireland game this afternoon was along these lines. I can’t remember who it referred to but it went along the lines of ‘he only needs to look at a carton of eggs to turn it into an omelet’.

 

One of the things that preoccupied me watching the game was the issue of scrums. Usually, several minutes of the game are wasted whilst they form up and invariably the scrum has to be stopped due to a collapse etc. and the ref will lecture the participants on how to do it properly. I understand the reasons, predominantly player safety, but can’t help thinking that the whole episode is pointless because in the majority of cases the side with the put-in will win the ball anyway. 

 

The value of a scrum really comes to the fore when you win it on your opponents 5 metre line, with the resulting driving maul crossing their line. At all other times it would be quicker, and safer, if they just had some equivalent of a throw-in line out wherever the offence took place. Even then (assuming you win your line out) you can quickly form a maul to enable a drive over, particularly on your opponents 5 metre line. 

[tigerburnie]

The problem with the scrum is the referees don' bother enforcing the key aspect, for it to be a genuine contest the ball should go in straight down the middle as a line out is. At the moment the 9 throws it behind the hooker straight into the second row, hookers these days could get done under the trade description act, they have both feet on the ground and don't strike for the ball any more. Fix that and the front row will assist their hooker in getting at the ball instead of a bout of all in wrestling.

[St Enodoc]

2 minutes ago, tigerburnie said:

the ball should go in straight down the middle

Unfortunately, that is not required by the current Law 19 part 15 f:

 

"Straight. The scrum-half may align their shoulder on the middle line of the scrum, thereby standing a shoulder-width closer to their side of the scrum".

[The Fatadder]

Talking of things that are not straight,  when was the last time you saw a lineout thrown straight…

[rockershovel]

Some teams seem to be capable of forming up quickly and taking scrums without, or with few penalties. England aren't one of them, and any player (past or present) versed in the dark arts of the front row can see why. 

[tigerburnie]

Six Nations 2024: World Rugby denies Scotland admission of error against France - BBC Sport

 

I don't understand what made the Scots RFU do this, did they think the powers that be in World Rugby would say sorry, ref's mistake you win Scotland, it is truly baffling, it must be very embarrassing for the players who have to take the field and face another referee.

[BoD]

On 11/02/2024 at 18:00, Deeps said:

One of the things that preoccupied me watching the game was the issue of scrums. Usually, several minutes of the game are wasted whilst they form up and invariably the scrum has to be stopped due to a collapse etc. and the ref will lecture the participants on how to do it properly. I understand the reasons, predominantly player safety, but can’t help thinking that the whole episode is pointless because in the majority of cases the side with the put-in will win the ball anyway. 

 

I like the quotes made by Nigel Owens when calling together the two front rows for a ‘lecture’.  (Best said/read with his Welsh accent)

 

’If you don’t like scrummaging you are in the wrong position. Let’s just get on with it’.

 

and

 

’Do it properly or we’ll get somebody else on who can’.

 

Opinions on his level of ‘input’ into a game vary but I think those two are classics.