The Shrunken Royal Navy

[jjb1970]

American hardware tends to have one huge advantage over alternatives which is quite hard for some to appreciate, it tends to get excellent long term support and a through life upgrade path which lifts it above most alternatives. Interestingly, this is true of non-US hardware if bought by the US armed forces and where they support it. A lot of British and European equipment is outstanding when new but whither on the vine as they steadily fall behind the curve because money isn't made available to keep it current. They also tend to have the critical mass to leverage economies of scale and amortise R&D over a good run. A principal reason a lot of home grown or Euro gear is so expensive is that massive R&D spend is amortised over a small production run. 

[Mike Storey]

11 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

Oil?

 

Last I time I read up on it, hardly any oil used in the UK now comes from the Middle East. The tankers in question are UK registered, but foreign owned and crewed and are delivering crude and refined all over the place.

[jjb1970]

Even if we don't get our oil from that part of the world, interrupting the flow out of the gulf would have significant consequences for all oil markets. Which is why the region still matters. However they Middle Eastern supplies are out of favour in most places as the market wants low sulphur crude to minimise the cost and energy demand etc of de-sulphurising at the refineries. 

[JeremyC]

3 hours ago, Barry O said:

There is no special relationship with the USA. 

 

Of course there's a special relationship with the USA, it consists of them saying  "jump" and us saying "how high"?

[jjb1970]

One of the interesting things about the Middle East is that they along with North African countries are finally waking up to the fact that they are ideally placed to become the next energy super powers in a post oil world. Immense solar energy, basically empty desert and adjacent to global trade routes. They are a perfect choice (if you remove the political questions) for the production of electro-fuels to replace oil. Saudi Aramco are already investing heavily in R&D of electrofuels.

[Barry O]

54 minutes ago, JeremyC said:

Of course there's a special relationship with the USA, it consists of them saying  "jump" and us saying "how high"?

Oh yes.

And some of their kit is...not to put too fine a point on it...expensive carp!

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, Ozexpatriate said:

Little goes to the UK from China, South Korea or Japan? (Is that what you are saying here Mike?) That would surprise me.

 

Certainly the US is different. the trans-Pacific trade is enormous. All the large North American west coast ports (Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, LA) handle trans-Pacific trade. Lots of automobiles from South Korea and Japan. Everything from China. Mineral and grain traffic goes west. The port in San Diego handles a lot of Central/South American fruit.

 

We no doubt import an enormous amount from the Far East and while it nowadays includes things like tools we don't import fuel and food from that faraway, at least not in critical amounts.  Our oil imports are increasingly coming from OPEC countries so whatever impacts the OPEC price (in particular, apart from its impact on world oil prices) will affect us.  But when it goes down to the wire I suspect we could survive, probably with some real or imagined discomfort, without mass imports of consumer goods from the Far East.     What we can't survive without are considerable imports of foodstuffs and fuel and those must surely be regarded as strategic flows which need some sort of security?

 

 

[Ohmisterporter]

From thedrive.com is an article that tries to explain why a convoy system in the Gulf would be unpopular with both merchant ship owners and navies.

 

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/29097/heres-why-naval-convoys-are-an-ideal-solution-hated-by-everyone

[Torper]

Surely what we have to do is release the tanker that we illegally and rather foolishly seized, whereupon the Iranians, if they want to have any credibility at all, will release the tanker that they illegally seized.

 

DT

[davknigh]

14 minutes ago, Torper said:

Surely what we have to do is release the tanker that we illegally and rather foolishly seized, whereupon the Iranians, if they want to have any credibility at all, will release the tanker that they illegally seized.

 

DT

Since the tanker was seized at the request of the US the wrath of the current occupant of the White House would be unleashed on Boris who is trying to get “great trade deals” with the aforementioned person. Assuming HMG is prepared to withstand such an assault there is no guarantee that Iran would reciprocate unless it was to tweak the nose of the Americans.

 

Cheers,

 

David

[Kingzance]

I can't help but think that, if there were no politicians / dictators / autocrats / kings / queens and religion, there would be little global conflict as all the barriers, obstacles and tariffs that these bodies create generally for their own self-interest could or would be swept away. Of course that would mean the need for significant military forces would also disappear and we would, as individuals, become responsible for our own and our family's needs rather than expecting some state body to like us and pay us money taken from others (less of course the management fees required to cover the expanding state role in all this). This of course could never happen as it is not in the interest of politicians / dictators / autocrats / kings / queens and religion to free those they presently control by a myriad of means. After all, turkeys never vote for Christmas or Thanksgiving. Come back Joseph Heller, we need your clarity! 

[Reorte]

3 minutes ago, Kingzance said:

I can't help but think that, if there were no politicians / dictators / autocrats / kings / queens and religion, there would be little global conflict as all the barriers, obstacles and tariffs that these bodies create generally for their own self-interest could or would be swept away. Of course that would mean the need for significant military forces would also disappear and we would, as individuals, become responsible for our own and our family's needs rather than expecting some state body to like us and pay us money taken from others (less of course the management fees required to cover the expanding state role in all this). This of course could never happen as it is not in the interest of politicians / dictators / autocrats / kings / queens and religion to free those they presently control by a myriad of means. After all, turkeys never vote for Christmas or Thanksgiving. Come back Joseph Heller, we need your clarity! 

 

If you removed them they'd reform. People have always grouped together for mutual benefit, which requires some organising of the group. The bigger the group gets the more you need people who are doing the organising full time. And thus your government (of whatever sort) has re-appeared. Whether you're looking at the next country or the next village with suspicion, it's only a matter of scale.

[Kingzance]

1 hour ago, Reorte said:

 

If you removed them they'd reform. People have always grouped together for mutual benefit, which requires some organising of the group. The bigger the group gets the more you need people who are doing the organising full time. And thus your government (of whatever sort) has re-appeared. Whether you're looking at the next country or the next village with suspicion, it's only a matter of scale.

Of course, hence the emoji and the reference to Joseph Heller! However, when we wipe us all out, maybe the next civilisation will learn from our mistakes - although probably not!

[Porkscratching]

3 minutes ago, Kingzance said:

Of course, hence the emoji and the reference to Joseph Heller! However, when we wipe us all out, maybe the next civilisation will learn from our mistakes - although probably not!

I wonder what the next civilization would evolve from...rats perhaps..?

[Kingzance]

1 hour ago, Porkscratching said:

I wonder what the next civilization would evolve from...rats perhaps..?

Didn't we evolve from bacteria in a fetid primordial soup - eg pond-life?

[Two_sugars]

this is getting polly tickle . . . . . 

[Porkscratching]

As long as no one mentions Jesus  ( I mentioned him once but I think I got away with it)

[J. S. Bach]

5 hours ago, Porkscratching said:

I wonder what the next civilization would evolve from...rats perhaps..?

No, more likely cockroaches!

[brianusa]

WE really have come a long way from the title of these postings!

    Brian.

[Porkscratching]

2 minutes ago, brianusa said:

WE really have come a long way from the title of these postings!

    Brian.

Its..evolved.!..

[Ozexpatriate]

2 hours ago, brianusa said:

WE really have come a long way from the title of these postings!

 

2 hours ago, Porkscratching said:

Its..evolved.!..

A little thread drift in Wheeltappers is inevitable. It will come round again - it might take until HMS QE is ready for sea again after whatever water lines burst and flooded compartments is resolved.

[brianusa]

 <<<it might take until HMS QE is ready for sea again after whatever water lines burst and flooded compartments is resolved.>>>

 

Perhaps it returns to the title, providing it shrinks!

     Brian

[Ohmisterporter]

I found this article on savetheroyalnavy.org to be interesting. Munitions handling on our aircraft carriers.

 

https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/munitions-handling-on-the-royal-navys-aircraft-carriers/

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, Ohmisterporter said:

I found this article on savetheroyalnavy.org to be interesting. Munitions handling on our aircraft carriers.

 

https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/munitions-handling-on-the-royal-navys-aircraft-carriers/

So basically the RN totally lacks an effective weapon for dealing with surface ships at more than a few miles range as there is no long range air launched anti-ship missile in the F35's weapon fit.  While the new first Sea Lord is asking for additional high quality anti-submarine vessels (translates as 'we need more Type 26s') the fleet basically lacks any sort of long range weapon to deal with surface vessels apart from the Spearfish torpedo (until Harpoon is replaced).   And it will have an air arm which is also incapable of effectively fulfilling that role - which makes me wonder exactly what the air arm of the fleet is actually meant to do beyond offering air defence and a ground attack capability.

 

I think the QE Class carriers will be the first large RN aircraft carriers to not have a proper capacity to launch air strikes against surface vessels beyond the range of their carrier group's other warships.

[Porkscratching]

So ultimately it's the usual modern thing...lack of simple common sense