MartinTrucks Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 (edited) On 10/02/2021 at 10:04, Wickham Green too said: Both the bauxite colour and small lettering were recent introductions in 1937 so only a small proportion of the fleet would have carried them. This begs the question as to what proportion of LMS vehicles were painted in the lighter grey, as this was only in use between 1934 and 1937. Not sure whether it has been mentioned previously, but there was a gap of some months between the implementation of the RCH reduced size lettering and the LMS' adoption of Bauxite for the body colour. Some vehicles were built with small lettering on light grey. https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/474558.html Best regards, Martin Edited February 21, 2021 by MartinTrucks 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted February 21, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 21, 2021 30 minutes ago, MartinTrucks said: This begs the question as to what proportion of LMS vehicles were painted in the lighter grey, as this was only in use between 1934 and 1937. That's curious. I've not previously seen any suggestion that the shade of grey changed between 1923 and 1936/7, though there were changes in the ingredients, with zinc white replacing white lead. It's rather moot anyway, since wagons became darker in traffic anyway, through a combination of chemical and physical weathering. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinTrucks Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 1 minute ago, Compound2632 said: That's curious. I've not previously seen any suggestion that the shade of grey changed between 1923 and 1936/7, though there were changes in the ingredients, with zinc white replacing white lead. It's rather moot anyway, since wagons became darker in traffic anyway, through a combination of chemical and physical weathering. The post-1934 grey contained blue and less black compared to the pre-34 shade. It was significantly lighter, possibly too light for white lettering. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted February 21, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 21, 2021 Just now, MartinTrucks said: The post-1934 grey contained blue and less black compared to the pre-34 shade. It was significantly lighter, possibly too light for white lettering. What is the evidence for this? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinTrucks Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: What is the evidence for this? 'LMS Wagons Volume Two' by Essery, page 152. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted February 21, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 21, 2021 1 minute ago, MartinTrucks said: 'LMS Wagons Volume Two' by Essery, page 152. Thank you. I only have the original one-volume The LMS Wagon. That comments on the change in ingredients but does not say that gave a blue tint - in fact there is no blue ingredient though zinc white does have a hint of blue that is absent with white lead. Also the paint specification given there is one dating from 1934 rather than (as far as one can tell) a new one introduced in that year. Evidently in the expanded work Essery either gave more details or had additional information, or was prepared to speculate more. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinTrucks Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 7 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: Thank you. I only have the original one-volume The LMS Wagon. That comments on the change in ingredients but does not say that gave a blue tint - in fact there is no blue ingredient though zinc white does have a hint of blue that is absent with white lead. Also the paint specification given there is one dating from 1934 rather than (as far as one can tell) a new one introduced in that year. Evidently in the expanded work Essery either gave more details or had additional information, or was prepared to speculate more. Much the same information is contained in 'The LMS Wagon' by Essery and Morgan starting on page 15. The paint specs that follow are based (as stated in the text) on 1935 specs. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 "The paint specifications in this chapter are those which appear in the 1935 edition of the official LMS schedule, ... the only other schedule which has been seen is dated 1929 ... " - so there might have been other schedules that the authors hadn't seen and we can't take the 1935 date as a categorical change. Whatever - photographic ( monochrome ) evidence doesn't SHOUT of any noticeable change of tone around this date though there is, of course, no indication of blueness ! ............ unless or until John Harvey can be persuaded to track-down and analyse surviving paint flakes - as he has done for the Southern - we're not going to know, for certain, what changes were made - let alone what the intention of any such change might have been. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted February 22, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 22, 2021 I suspect that what we're looking at is an unintentional change of colour due to the substitution of zinc white for white lead. I've never come across an explanation for the change to bauxite; the idea that the 1936 small lettering didn't stand out so well on light grey might have driven the change is interesting. It took BR to come up with the idea of the black patch! 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted February 22, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 22, 2021 2 hours ago, Compound2632 said: I suspect that what we're looking at is an unintentional change of colour due to the substitution of zinc white for white lead. I've never come across an explanation for the change to bauxite; the idea that the 1936 small lettering didn't stand out so well on light grey might have driven the change is interesting. It took BR to come up with the idea of the black patch! But often the black patch was on non existent paint, or else very worn paint! Also was the wagon identification number on black, required on steel bodied wagons, where the paint rusted off? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted February 22, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 22, 2021 Just now, kevinlms said: But often the black patch was on non existent paint, or else very worn paint! Also was the wagon identification number on black, required on steel bodied wagons, where the paint rusted off? My speculation is that the black patch was suggested by someone who had started their career in the C&W department of the NBR, where the parsimonious practice was to paint a grey patch for the crescent and tare weight after a wagon was overhauled but not repainted. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinTrucks Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 8 hours ago, Compound2632 said: I suspect that what we're looking at is an unintentional change of colour due to the substitution of zinc white for white lead. I've never come across an explanation for the change to bauxite; the idea that the 1936 small lettering didn't stand out so well on light grey might have driven the change is interesting. It took BR to come up with the idea of the black patch! My apologies, I don't seem to be getting informed of any new postings on this topic. The black patch originated during WW2 when LMS timber-bodied open wagons were being produced new with all ironwork black and timber unpainted except for a patch where the owner, tare and running number were painted in small (3"?) lettering. Open wagons built by/for the SR during this period were similarly finished. Regards, Martin 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 58 minutes ago, MartinTrucks said: ...... Open wagons built by/for the SR during this period were similarly finished. By the Southern - yes ....... Ashford were building open wagons for the L.M.S. L.N.E.R. and the Army as well as the Southern - so nobody else was building for the S.R. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinTrucks Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said: By the Southern - yes ....... Ashford were building open wagons for the L.M.S. L.N.E.R. and the Army as well as the Southern - so nobody else was building for the S.R. I did not suggest that anyone else WAS producing wagons for the SR. The SR produced open wagons for the LNER but I am unsure whether the ironwork on those was black or grey. Edited February 22, 2021 by MartinTrucks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 Sorry, your 'by/for' could have been misinterpreted. Ex-works wagon 262463 shown in Tatlow 4A has body ironwork of a lighter hue than the ( black ) chassis and ( black ) patch - patch singular as the tare is painted on the corner plate ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinTrucks Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 (edited) 14 hours ago, Wickham Green too said: Sorry, your 'by/for' could have been misinterpreted. Ex-works wagon 262463 shown in Tatlow 4A has body ironwork of a lighter hue than the ( black ) chassis and ( black ) patch - patch singular as the tare is painted on the corner plate ! Sorry, it took me a while to figure out what point you were trying to make. Those of us who model in 12" scale (in addition to smaller scales) normally number our wagons on both sides, hence two patches, in the plural, one on each side! Congratulations on discovering my error. I wrote 'tare', but should have written 'load capacity'. The tare weight on that wagon, which is a SR diagram 1375 design built BY the SR FOR the LNER was indeed painted towards the bottom of the lower RH corner plate on each side. In fact, I was discussing this very point with a Bluebell Railway colleague only a week ago. The photo which you quote also appears in the SR Wagons Volume 4 book. Regards, Martin Edited February 23, 2021 by MartinTrucks clarity Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 I think it's normal to only consider the visible side of a wagon when discussing lettering positions, patches etc. ......... life's too short to keep writing "... and a second patch at the right hand end of the opposite side - which would be the left hand end if you were looking at it face on - which you're not." ............... nah - I'd leave it as 'one patch' !!! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinTrucks Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said: I think it's normal to only consider the visible side of a wagon when discussing lettering positions, patches etc. ......... life's too short to keep writing "... and a second patch at the right hand end of the opposite side - which would be the left hand end if you were looking at it face on - which you're not." ............... nah - I'd leave it as 'one patch' !!! Would a peanut console you? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 1 hour ago, MartinTrucks said: Would a peanut console you? ...... roasted to exactly the correct shade of bauxite, I trust !!?! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimC Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 (edited) Then of course a dull red paint may be red lead, bauxite residue, or iron oxide based. The first two being too toxic for use in these times (and quite right too). My experience with natural oxide pigments (a long time ago) was that they did vary significantly, and with most of these formulae there was little scope for colour matching. My bet would be that "Chuck a bit more black in mate" was about the limit for wagons, Edited February 23, 2021 by JimC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted February 24, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 24, 2021 (edited) On 02/05/2019 at 08:50, george stein said: And I thought this was a simple question. Silly me. Thanks for all the comments: most informative. George North Carolina It is a simple question. Your original question related to LMS wagons in LMS days. But as is common with this exact conversation, the thread drifts off rather quickly to British Railways (or other minor pre-nationalised railways!), where the choice of grey or bauxite paint, was selected for entirely different reasons. Edited February 24, 2021 by kevinlms More info Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 Wouldn't this forum be boring without a little thread-drift ??!? ................... I'm always learning - valuable - things I didn't know I wanted to learn ! 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted February 24, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 24, 2021 The part of the question not addressed is: what proportion of stock would be in the new livery x years after the livery change? If you believe in the canonical 7-year repainting cycle, then x/7-ths. But should you believe that figure? There are examples of wagons surviving with pre-grouping lettering into the 1930s, though they're probably outliers in a statistical distribution. I believe they are over-represented in the photographic record because they were unusual and hence interesting. Different types of wagon are perhaps more likely to have been repainted than others. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted February 25, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 25, 2021 15 hours ago, Wickham Green too said: Wouldn't this forum be boring without a little thread-drift ??!? ................... I'm always learning - valuable - things I didn't know I wanted to learn ! I have no problem with a bit of thread drift. But how useful is it, when the majority of the thread has little to do with the original question? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 How long's a piece of string ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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