Wagonologie

[Chris Higgs]

1 hour ago, Nick Mitchell said:

 

At least it will leave you lots more time to focus on your Jubilee, @2mm Andy 🤪

 

 

Well, the 2mm version is certainly value for money - if you measure it by hours of fun per square inch of etch!

 

Lest anyone think otherwise with my talk of devilish dealings and dastardly designs, I do actually enjoy the challenges of building this kind of kit... and managed to make a bit of progress yesterday.

 

I bent up some .25mm phosphor bronze for the truss rods and soldered them in place. I was petrified of damaging the very vulnerable looking ends of the queen posts without the rods there to protect them.

 

 

I still wasn't happy about the square-ness of everything, and there was a lot of flexibility sideways along the length of the thing. The bent up ends were flopping about alarmingly, and I'd lost a bit of flange from one end.

 

I'd been working on the assumption that a plasticard floor would be added as the last stage of the assembly, but I changed my mind, and decided I wanted a floor that could be soldered in place. After some thought, I decided to use 0.25mm double-sided PCB rather than sheet metal for the floor.

 

I made the floor out of three separate sections. The central, flat one being installed first. With this in place, everything felt so much more square and rigid. I did need to make a few more adjustments to some of the existing cross-pieces to get everything properly square - even though I thought it already was pretty good, but the presence of a true rectangle between the girders gave the lie to that notion! I also ended up re-fixing the truss rods more than once in the process.

 

 

Thinking about it, it would probably have been better to assemble the sides around a floor rather than the cross-pieces as I had done.

 

 

The end sections of floor were tricky to fit, as there was nothing really to align them against height-wise.

 

I made two support brackets (bits of bent-up scrap etch) to hold the two floor sections in registration in the middle. By sliding one end of these under the bogie support stretchers, it allowed me to set the correct height of the middle of the floor section at its two extremities. (You will notice how the floor is soldered directly to two of the other cross members. Actually, the cross members were adjusted to sit on the floor!)

 

 

The buffer beams (which fit over and around the side girders) were much easier to fit and make square with the floor sections in place.

There were half-etched ends to the sole-bar inserts that are supposed to bend out and solder to the inside of the buffer beam channel. They didn't quite line up, so in the end, I decided to just cut these off. Given the thicker-than-scale buffer beam channel, I think it looks okay without the additional half etch anyway.

 

I'm quite pleased with how this is coming along now...

 

 

 

Hmm, you have given me an idea. I designed three Lowmac kits which are/were available throught the shop. But there was a fourth design for a longer BR type which I couldn't manage to build as it was all just too flexible. I am now thinking a piece of PCB used as an under-floor might just do the trick of stiffening it up. By chance, I am tidying my railway room in preparation for moving house in a few months and I came across a whole box of single-side PCB sheets that I must have bought decades ago.

 

Chris

 

[Nick Mitchell]

1 minute ago, Chris Higgs said:

Hmm, you have given me an idea. I designed three Lowmac kits which are/were available throught the shop. But there was a fourth design for a longer BR type which I couldn't manage to build as it was all just too flexible. I am now thinking a piece of PCB used as an under-floor might just do the trick of stiffening it up. By chance, I am tidying my railway room in preparation for moving house in a few months and I came across a whole box of single-side PCB sheets that I must have bought decades ago.

 

Was the telegraph code for this BR wagon Serendipity by any chance?

[2mm Andy]

15 hours ago, Nick Mitchell said:

 

At least it will leave you lots more time to focus on your Jubilee, @2mm Andy 🤪

 

 

Ha - all my free time seems to be taken up with trying to find my modelling mojo. Last seen several years ago now (some time before the official jubilee date). At this rate I might get the Jubilee loco started before the Platinum Jubilee...

 

Glad to hear that the etches are providing value for money though.

 

Andy

[Nick Mitchell]

I've not had much time over the last week, but in the odd moments I have been working my way slowly through a number of challenges with the Rectank.

 

First off were the lightbulb-shaped securing rings - and the impossibly tiny brackets that they hang off.

As usual with these things, the first one went surprisingly well, but the second one...

 

Here's the first ring soldered in place. The first difficulty was that the top part of the ring hadn't etched through properly. All 10 are the same in this respect, but somehow I was able to clear out the cusp without distorting the shape of the fragile ring. The second difficulty was how to hold everything whilst getting the soldering iron in from behind the little hole through which the stem of the securing bracket pokes...

 

 

The second ring went on, but the fixing was a bit wonky, and as I tried to adjust it, the bracket broke.

Replacing the bracket with a length of 0.2mm copper wire, suitable flattened at the end made it very much easier to solder in place, and the appearance is ultimately almost indistinguishable. I will forget about these crazily small brackets and use wire for the remaining eight rings.

 

Below is the broken bracket and its replacement wire:

 

 

Here's the end result:

 

 

Where the ends of the wagon bend up, the flanges of the main girders have a gap to be filled in with separate pieces.

These fitted nicely(!) and soldered in place without any problems. These end sections will eventually need a planked covering.

 

 

Next I decided to solder in the brake cross shaft. This may need to be removed again if I need access behind the buffer beams, but the little flanges that bend down to support this shaft felt quite vulnerable, and I wanted to give them a bit of protection.

The holes were etched different sizes, and really rather too big - I used chunky 0.45mm wire, which may make fitting the handwheels interesting when the time comes...

 

 

I looked at the framework for the screw jacks that fit to the buffer beams next.

Some of the wagons had their jacks removed at some point, but some made it through to preservation with them in place. They're one of the interesting features of these wagons, so I couldn't build the model without them.

 

Working out the best way to fold them up was fun. My "Bug" hold and fold proved to be a boon...

 

 

Working out how to hold them in place while soldering them to the buffer beam was even more fun!

 

I had to file a little bit at the sides to make sure they sat nicely between the rivets on the buffer beam. Here's the first one in position from a couple of different angles:

 

 

 

I was checking that there was room for the buffer backing plates between the arms of the jack brackets (which there is!), when I realised that the holes in the buffer beam are relatively enormous.

 

I'm intending to use 1'6" self-contained cast brass buffers from the Association range. The spigots on these buffers are 0.7mm diameter, and the holes about 1.2mm.

 

After failing to find any suitable tube in my stash, I turned up some little brass collars on my lathe to fit over the buffer spigots.

 

 

The only problem was, after parting them off, it was almost impossible to tell the difference between them and swarf!

I eventually managed to locate 4 of the 6 I had to make...

 

[Nick Mitchell]

On Wednesday, the postman delivered a package from Shop 2. Amongst the goodies contained therein was this beautiful etched fret for a pair of LMS pattern diamond frame bogies intended for the Rectank. I believe the genius of Stephen Harris is behind the design.

 

 

There are comprehensive instructions available on the 2mm Association website, so I'll skip straight to the end of construction:

 

 

So far so good, but what about the wheels?

The Rectanks all had 4'8½" wheels, and the only type available to buy with the correct diameter (5.25mm) are solid disc wheels.

On the bogie etch fret are some drilling templates to convert the solid disc wheels to 3-hole discs, but every photo of a Rectank I have seen has spoked wheels.

 

With such a spindly bogie frame, disc wheels were going to look wrong, so there was only one thing to do - get hold of some 6mm spoked wheel plastic inserts, and somehow fit them to 5.25mm tyres.

 

Having spent many happy hours assembling wagon and coach wheels for the Association, I thought something might be possible... and I also knew which dodgy corner of Bradford the components could be obtained from.

 

Here are the ingredients: 5.25mm tyres, 12.25mm axles and 6mm spoked centres:

 

 

After a couple of days head-scratching, I hit upon a method for modifying the centres.

I made this little tool, turned on my lathe to be a sliding fit into the 5.25mm tyres.

A hole 1.8mm,the size of the boss on the back of the wheel inserts was drilled up the centre, and slots filed to accommodate the wheel spokes.

 

 

A wheel centre slots into the tool like this:

 

 

The whole is then turned over, and the outside of the wheel centre can be trimmed away to the diameter of the brass part.

 

 

The end result is a little "spider", nicely centred on the boss:

 

 

This was then held in my lathe tailstock to be pressed into the tyre - both components being held in collets.

 

 

Here are two such wheels fitted to an axle, for comparison with a shop-bought (although it could have been assembled by me!) 6mm wheel set.

 

 

And here are two axles in the bogie. Well worth the effort I think, in capturing the spindly nature of the prototype.

 

 

I should admit that one of these four wheels is not concentric, and I'll have to make another one. Also, the tyres are not terribly secure on the wheels. Maybe I should invest in some of the UHU Extra Strong epoxy that Bob Jones described using in the August 2019 2mm Magazine to cure his loose tyre problem.

 

Just to give an impression of how the bogie will look in place, I've propped up one end of the Rectank body (which has progressed no further since my last update) and loosely balanced it in place.

I think I'm going to have some clearance issues, but a project like this is just a series of problems to be solved - which is, after all, what makes it fun! Before I get to that problem, I'll have to work out the bogie mounting arrangements anyway...

 

[Izzy]

 

Now that's clever and only 1 in 4 not pasing muster is pretty good going I think. I can remember spending 40 hrs one week just to get 50 axles of usable wheels made with standard parts. It was at that stage it was decided new moulding dies were needed.....

 

Bob

[richbrummitt]

Stephen did a range of freight bogies for the association. There was an article on them in the mag when they were launched. The hole in the stretcher fits over brass drive bushes from shop 3. 

[Nick Mitchell]

2 hours ago, richbrummitt said:

Stephen did a range of freight bogies for the association. There was an article on them in the mag when they were launched. The hole in the stretcher fits over brass drive bushes from shop 3. 

 

Thanks Rich. Found it in the October 2004 issue in the on-line archive - the same year I joined the association!

A pair of bushes were supplied with the kit from Shop 2.

I still need to calculate the ride height, and whether to try and incorporate any form of rocking compensation like i would do with a coach.

 

[Ian Smeeton]

Thank you Nick, for the tip about soldering Stephen Harris's layered kits from the rear.

 

A much neater finish than I achieved on earlier ones.

 

 

A couple of 16t Minerals in the flat before bending up, front and back for reference.

 

Regards

 

Ian

[VRBroadgauge]

Nice bogies. I'm just about to etch a broad gauge version for my own use. We call them arch bar bogies in oz and they have the standard 3' wheels thankfully. Are the springs etched? I've been talking to a bloke here that has been using cut down bolts as the springs. Gives you a bit more weight and makes the bogies track a bit better. He was in HO so I'm not sure the logistical numbers would stack up. Seemed like a good idea but not sure how practical it would be for us.

[65179]

3 minutes ago, VRBroadgauge said:

Nice bogies. I'm just about to etch a broad gauge version for my own use. We call them arch bar bogies in oz and they have the standard 3' wheels thankfully. Are the springs etched? I've been talking to a bloke here that has been using cut down bolts as the springs. Gives you a bit more weight and makes the bogies track a bit better. He was in HO so I'm not sure the logistical numbers would stack up. Seemed like a good idea but not sure how practical it would be for us.

 

Yes Bruce they are etched. It's a while since I've built any of Stephen's bogies, but I'd imagine leaving a space for bolts to represent the springs would leave the bogies pretty weak and prone to deforming before you solder in the bolts even assuming that 16BA or similar would be suitable.

 

Simon

[Nick Mitchell]

This is nothing to do with a model I'm making, but I discovered this web page while searching for some other information.

I found it a fascinating read, and thought I'd share the link here for anyone interested in traditional timber wagon construction:

Railway wagon building in the 1930s

[65179]

3 hours ago, Nick Mitchell said:

This is nothing to do with a model I'm making, but I discovered this web page while searching for some other information.

I found it a fascinating read, and thought I'd share the link here for anyone interested in traditional timber wagon construction:

Railway wagon building in the 1930s

 

Thanks for sharing this Nick. 

 

Simon

[Adam]

On 30/12/2022 at 00:04, Nick Mitchell said:

 

No axleboxes in the kit, I'm afraid Kevin. The ones I'm opting for (based on photos) are shop item 2-440.

I've only got one more in my "to do" pile... for now!

 

I forgot to post this comparison picture in my previous post - the Catfish alongside the Gannet that began this thread - from the sublime to the ridiculous as far as kit designs go! I've got two more of those to wrestle with at some point. Looking at the two together, it becomes obvious why BR enlarged the Catfish to make the Dogfish design.

 

 

Magnificent (not as magnificent as the reworked wheels for the Rectank which are mind blowing), but the Catfish was basically a welded version of a Leeds Forge design built by Met Camm for the LMS and branded Herring by BR, as the Dogfish was. The SECR commissioned the originals in two batches and the LNER had a few (branded Trout); they were, basically, a catalogue product so BR didn't have to think too hard. These things are fiddly in 4mm, never mind the smaller scale. Chapeau!

 

Adam

Edited February 1, 2023 by Adam

[Nick Mitchell]

Who doesn't love starting a new project? I'll make any excuse to do so!

And what better excuse to push everything to one side and divert one's attention than when an exciting-looking package arrives with a Australian post mark?

 

But what wagon-related wonder was inside?

There was a double-layer of card bearing the word "Folly".

Turns out that was the hand-written instruction sheet! Of course a lovely etch was hiding between the layers of card...

 

 

It was (as expected!) a Midland Railway Diag. 326 Deep Case wagon - a development of the earlier Iron Skeleton - described variously as a coat-hanger, a set of bellows and a lattice bridge on wheels... I've been dying to get my hands on one of these since I saw Kevin's assembled one through window 14 of his advent calendar.

 

I'm very grateful to @VRBroadgauge for making the etch, and to @Sithlord75 for sending it across the pond.

 

 

I was so excited by the look of it that I built it straight away, and here are a few pictures of my finished model, waiting for the paint shop. I hope I've done it justice!

 

 

I think the design of the etches are a real work of art.

For a wagon that pretty much has no body or chassis, the parts all locate in such a cunning way that it is impossible not to build it square and true.

I had a lot of fun working out how it should go together, and I'm delighted with the end result.

 

You really need to look at it from lots of different angles to get a true sense of how ridiculous these wagons are - and how clever the kit is:

 

 

 

I've replaced the lever and single V hanger with a matching pair, so that it looks like the photographs I have access to.

 

 

The self-contained buffers are from the Association range of brass castings, and coupling hooks from my spares box.

 

 

I think I probably meet the definition of those despised modellers who collect "special" wagons in far greater numbers than would ever be plausible in a layout setting, but I don't care - just look at this amazing thing!

 

Thanks again, fellas. I can't even remember the reason why we started talking about the weirdest wagon I could think of in that ZAG meeting last year, but Bruce has certainly proved he can design an etch for anything. A good job too, since @Nig H claims to have retired from the business! Now then, Bruce, about this "un-etchable" Horwich Crab...

[Sithlord75]

You're very welcome Nick.  And congratulations on such a quick and neat build.  That means there are now three models in 2mm out there with a fourth in progress.  @queensquare has the fifth of the first run of etches.

 

Just to clarify matters you did suggest it as a very much tongue in cheek flight of fancy - I guess @VRBroadgauge didn't know what he didn't know and went ahead and did it!  Given all he got was the pages out of Essery's Midland Book with a very dodgy looking drawing and a couple of builders photos, I agree he did a stunning job.  

 

I'm going to amend mine a little to do similar with the brakes - when I organise transfers for the numbers etc, you'll get another postcard!

 

I'm sure Anthony will be grateful for the copy for the Magazine (and it means I don't have to write my own up!)

[VRBroadgauge]

3 hours ago, Nick Mitchell said:

Who doesn't love starting a new project? I'll make any excuse to do so!

And what better excuse to push everything to one side and divert one's attention than when an exciting-looking package arrives with a Australian post mark?

 

But what wagon-related wonder was inside?

There was a double-layer of card bearing the word "Folly".

Turns out that was the hand-written instruction sheet! Of course a lovely etch was hiding between the layers of card...

 

 

It was (as expected!) a Midland Railway Diag. 326 Deep Case wagon - a development of the earlier Iron Skeleton - described variously as a coat-hanger, a set of bellows and a lattice bridge on wheels... I've been dying to get my hands on one of these since I saw Kevin's assembled one through window 14 of his advent calendar.

 

I'm very grateful to @VRBroadgauge for making the etch, and to @Sithlord75 for sending it across the pond.

 

 

I was so excited by the look of it that I built it straight away, and here are a few pictures of my finished model, waiting for the paint shop. I hope I've done it justice!

 

 

I think the design of the etches are a real work of art.

For a wagon that pretty much has no body or chassis, the parts all locate in such a cunning way that it is impossible not to build it square and true.

I had a lot of fun working out how it should go together, and I'm delighted with the end result.

 

You really need to look at it from lots of different angles to get a true sense of how ridiculous these wagons are - and how clever the kit is:

 

 

 

I've replaced the lever and single V hanger with a matching pair, so that it looks like the photographs I have access to.

 

 

The self-contained buffers are from the Association range of brass castings, and coupling hooks from my spares box.

 

 

I think I probably meet the definition of those despised modellers who collect "special" wagons in far greater numbers than would ever be plausible in a layout setting, but I don't care - just look at this amazing thing!

 

Thanks again, fellas. I can't even remember the reason why we started talking about the weirdest wagon I could think of in that ZAG meeting last year, but Bruce has certainly proved he can design an etch for anything. A good job too, since @Nig H claims to have retired from the business! Now then, Bruce, about this "un-etchable" Horwich Crab...

An "un-etchable"?? Challenge accepted. Send me some drawings.

[Nick Mitchell]

12 minutes ago, VRBroadgauge said:

An "un-etchable"?? Challenge accepted. Send me some drawings.

 

I'll dig out the works drawings and contact you privately... but you do know I was teasing, right?

I seem to recall Nigel saying one of the problems he foresaw was to do with the shallowness of the valances under the footplate.

He may be able to shed more light, but the firebox is a pretty dastardly shape as well, and the footplate is on four levels with nice curves in-between.

The valve gear is not straight forward, as the lifting arm points backwards and is cranked outwards, and the expansion link is massive - desperate to be modelled "in gear"... and that's if you're only talking about the Walschaerts ones and not the ones with rotary cam-driven poppet valves...

At least you wouldn't have to worry about the tender as Nigel has already done it.

[VRBroadgauge]

5 minutes ago, Nick Mitchell said:

 

I'll dig out the works drawings and contact you privately... but you do know I was teasing, right?

I seem to recall Nigel saying one of the problems he foresaw was to do with the shallowness of the valances under the footplate.

He may be able to shed more light, but the firebox is a pretty dastardly shape as well, and the footplate is on four levels with nice curves in-between.

The valve gear is not straight forward, as the lifting arm points backwards and is cranked outwards, and the expansion link is massive - desperate to be modelled "in gear"... and that's if you're only talking about the Walschaerts ones and not the ones with rotary cam-driven poppet valves...

At least you wouldn't have to worry about the tender as Nigel has already done it.

It may be difficult but there's always more than one way to skin a giraffe. I'm a big fan of Nigel's designs and if he says it's problematic then game on. These sorts of projects would be a collection of people's experience and skill sets. It's the part of model building and design that I most enjoy - problem solving. I've sort of cut my teeth on wagons and whilst they're still work in progress (I'm working on a retro fit braking system - sorry Kev) there's not much I can't do. I've just finished some bogie flat cars for my system so that's just about every disipline.

I've drawn rods, guides, cross heads and other details for @Laurie2mil and we'll see how they go. I'll just be asking a lot of questions. We'll sort something out that can be built without too much pain.

[queensquare]

10 hours ago, Nick Mitchell said:

Who doesn't love starting a new project? I'll make any excuse to do so!

And what better excuse to push everything to one side and divert one's attention than when an exciting-looking package arrives with a Australian post mark?

 

But what wagon-related wonder was inside?

There was a double-layer of card bearing the word "Folly".

Turns out that was the hand-written instruction sheet! Of course a lovely etch was hiding between the layers of card...

 

 

It was (as expected!) a Midland Railway Diag. 326 Deep Case wagon - a development of the earlier Iron Skeleton - described variously as a coat-hanger, a set of bellows and a lattice bridge on wheels... I've been dying to get my hands on one of these since I saw Kevin's assembled one through window 14 of his advent calendar.

 

I'm very grateful to @VRBroadgauge for making the etch, and to @Sithlord75 for sending it across the pond.

 

 

I was so excited by the look of it that I built it straight away, and here are a few pictures of my finished model, waiting for the paint shop. I hope I've done it justice!

 

 

I think the design of the etches are a real work of art.

For a wagon that pretty much has no body or chassis, the parts all locate in such a cunning way that it is impossible not to build it square and true.

I had a lot of fun working out how it should go together, and I'm delighted with the end result.

 

You really need to look at it from lots of different angles to get a true sense of how ridiculous these wagons are - and how clever the kit is:

 

 

 

I've replaced the lever and single V hanger with a matching pair, so that it looks like the photographs I have access to.

 

 

The self-contained buffers are from the Association range of brass castings, and coupling hooks from my spares box.

 

 

I think I probably meet the definition of those despised modellers who collect "special" wagons in far greater numbers than would ever be plausible in a layout setting, but I don't care - just look at this amazing thing!

 

Thanks again, fellas. I can't even remember the reason why we started talking about the weirdest wagon I could think of in that ZAG meeting last year, but Bruce has certainly proved he can design an etch for anything. A good job too, since @Nig H claims to have retired from the business! Now then, Bruce, about this "un-etchable" Horwich Crab...

 

Great stuff Nick. Dont worry, those 'despised modellers' who collect "special" wagons isnt a very exclusive club - I'm certainly a paid up member!

 

As Kevin said, I have one of these etches which arrived along with numerous other etched delights from Oz. With Stothert and Pitt being rail served at Bath I can justify quite a number of "special" wagons though whether one of these ever made it down there I dont know - wont stop me building it regardless! What sort of load are these likely to have carried.

Spare time in the shed at the moment is focussed on tracklaying whilst there is something for Tucking Mill on my little front room bench but I will return to wagons again before too long - probably horseboxes!

 

Jerry

 

 

[65179]

7 hours ago, Nick Mitchell said:

 

I'll dig out the works drawings and contact you privately... but you do know I was teasing, right?

I seem to recall Nigel saying one of the problems he foresaw was to do with the shallowness of the valances under the footplate.

He may be able to shed more light, but the firebox is a pretty dastardly shape as well, and the footplate is on four levels with nice curves in-between.

The valve gear is not straight forward, as the lifting arm points backwards and is cranked outwards, and the expansion link is massive - desperate to be modelled "in gear"... and that's if you're only talking about the Walschaerts ones and not the ones with rotary cam-driven poppet valves...

At least you wouldn't have to worry about the tender as Nigel has already done it.

 

Sounds very interesting!  3D printing might be one way to do the firebox (and potentially the whole boiler). It's big enough that a hollow one would take plenty of lead. 

 

https://docbrown.info/docspics/ArchiveSteam/loco42765.htm

 

If you do press ahead Bruce then I'm more than happy to chip in with info, pictures, another pair of eyes etc too. 

 

Nick talked about alternative valve gear (some had Lentz rotary cam poppet gear subsequently replaced by Reidinger gear). I'd advise sticking with Walschaerts only. You'll still need two versions - one version for Nick and one that the rest of us can actually build 😉

 

Simon

 

 

Edited June 19, 2023 by 65179

[Kylestrome]

12 hours ago, Nick Mitchell said:

..... Midland Railway Diag. 326 Deep Case wagon .....

 

That's got to be the one of the wierdest wagons ever!

 

Are you going to put a load on it and if so, what would be appropriate?

 

David

[65179]

52 minutes ago, Kylestrome said:

 

That's got to be the one of the wierdest wagons ever!

 

Are you going to put a load on it and if so, what would be appropriate?

 

David

 

Hi David, apart from the facetious answer, deep cases, there was a discussion of loads when Kevin built his here:

 

These deep case and skeleton wagons were 8-10ton. They appear at least on occasion to have been fitted with twin longitudinal timber baulks.  These could then support loads like large A frames and Compound2632 found a view showing a steel fabrication in an open framework case.

 

Simon

[Nick Mitchell]

1 hour ago, Kylestrome said:

Are you going to put a load on it and if so, what would be appropriate?

 

19 minutes ago, 65179 said:

They appear at least on occasion to have been fitted with twin longitudinal timber baulks.  These could then support loads like large A frames and Compound2632 found a view showing a steel fabrication in an open framework case.

 

I'm strongly tempted to leave the wagon empty, to show off its spindly nature. Would that be a cop-out?

[65179]

50 minutes ago, Nick Mitchell said:

 

 

I'm strongly tempted to leave the wagon empty, to show off its spindly nature. Would that be a cop-out?

 

Did these types of wagons spend more time out of use than in traffic, and did they have 'return to' instructions?

 

I think they'd all gone by your nominal time period, so you'll be modelling that little known instance of a D326, assumed long since withdrawn, being found in an oddly prominent siding at or near a former L&Y station, I presume?

 

I'm looking forward to Kevin's next trip over to the UK where a rake of these will be seen crossing  Victoria Viaduct on Fence Houses behind an EE type 3 anyway!

 

Simon

 

Simon