Trix TTR Mk1 coaches

[GWR-fan]

I was unsure of which forum to post this question.  Last week while prusing a popular online store pre-owned section I spotted four Mk1 coaches in Southern livery with two off BCK, one CK and one RMB.  At first glance and knowing that if you snooze you lose so I quickly pressed the buy now button as I wanted the Commonwealth bogies and at first assumed the models were Replica brand and so were OO scale.  It was only when I looked closely post purchase that I noticed the unusual moulding on the inner end of the bogies and that Replica do not make a CK (at first I thought that it was an FK).  The coaches arrived today and as I suspected they were TTR hybrid scale cars.  They actually,  apart from a little play wear,  were in very good condition with two missing the glazing.  The construction mimics Tri-ang/Hornby Mk1 construction but with only one centre mount screw and the bogies are screw fitted.

 

The all up princely sum of GBP13.50 including airmail shipping downunder did seem more than reasonable as to my surprise three of the cars had quality aftermarket metal wheelsets fitted.   A pity though that I have no use for the slightly underscale coach bodies.

 

My question is would the Commonwealth bogies be suitable to use on my OO scale Mk1 coaches to represent the later replacement fitting of these bogies into the 1960's and later cars?  I compared the wheelbase of the bogie to a B1 type bogie (Hornby) and the TTR bogie was about 1 mm shorter. 

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi

 

I have used Trix coaches when making a Swindon 6 car intercity DMU. Leaving me with quite a few Commonwealth bogies, I think they are a good looking model of this type of bogie and who do you know who can see 1mm less in the wheelbase of a moving bogie?

 

 

The windows on a Swindon DMU are shallower than on a Mk1 coach and on the inter-city units the seating bays where shorter so with some cutting and shutting plus a wee bit of plastic card to make the coach height right the sides were mounted on Tri-ang underframes with Tri-ang roofs.  The Trix roofs and underframes are going to be used on a Hastings short underframe DEMU as their narrowness is correct for this slim units. I can scratchbuild straight sided DEMUs. 

[Fat Controller]

Trix seemed to use several scales within one vehicle; the (very free-running) Commonwealth bogies are almost spot-on for 4mm. They'd be fine for use on other manufacturers' stock; I think catering vehicles were early receipients of Commonwealth bogies, though in later years, even BGs and GUVs received them. 

[Chris M]

Back in the day I always thought the Trix commonwealth bogies were very nice. 

The alternative is to get yourself a Trix Western to pull them. Not a great model by today's standards but they were great at the time. They do seem to have a certain character that I like.

[GWR-fan]

Many thanks gentlemen for the supplied information.  I assumed that the bogies would be way underscale but am now intending making use of them.  I did recently modify two Hornby RMB using Replica Commonwealth bogies and this is why I was attracted to these cars.  

[The Johnster]

I suspect that Trix mk1s would be not too far off for the Swindon 4-car (Class 123) dmu as well; these run on B4 bogies.  Trix commonwealth bogies are nice toolings and stand up well to modern versions.

 

I 'ad the Western, as a CKD kit, and thought it was an acceptable compromise, but one should bear in mind that I was but a callow yoof and my layout featured such abominations as a 56xx kitbashed from an Airfix 61xx with a Triang Jinty chassis, and a 43xx using Airfix CoT and 61xx and a Rovex Black Princess chassis (yes, the motor projected into the cab and over the front of the tender).  Westerns are taller than most locos, and the compromised scale of the Trix model still put it higher than the roofs of my Triang mk1s.  It was a nice runner, and looked the part but was let down by spurious outside frames for the bogies.  It had working headcode lights which were very effective, unlike many overbright modern versions of this.  

[truffy]

37 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

my layout featured such abominations as a 56xx kitbashed from an Airfix 61xx with a Triang Jinty chassis, and a 43xx using Airfix CoT and 61xx and a Rovex Black Princess chassis

It takes a big man to walk the mean streets of inner-city Cardiff, and to admit to that.

[The Johnster]

Oh, no, I don't admit to it when I'm walking the mean streets of inner-city Cardiff...

[SweenyTod1]

Are these the same as the Trans Pennine unit cars? I have the two green driving cab cars, but not the intermediate  vehicles. I believe they are rarer than hen's teeth, but I would love to see mine run as a 5 or 6 car set. No doubt an unfulfilled dream!?

 

Tod

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, SweenyTod1 said:

Are these the same as the Trans Pennine unit cars? I have the two green driving cab cars, but not the intermediate  vehicles. I believe they are rarer than hen's teeth, but I would love to see mine run as a 5 or 6 car set. No doubt an unfulfilled dream!?

 

Tod

I think it's what Trix used to sell as intermediate vehicles; IIRC, they were available in DMU Green.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Yes. Trix never made correct vehicles for the intermediate cars. Trans-Pennine units are about as complicated as it comes when reproducing a DMU with 5 different types (IIRC) of bodywork for six vehicles. Surely the reason that no other manufacturer has wanted to produce this popular (iconic even) DMU.

 

So they just sold ordinary Mk1s in DMU green.

[Joseph_Pestell]

2 hours ago, SweenyTod1 said:

Are these the same as the Trans Pennine unit cars? I have the two green driving cab cars, but not the intermediate  vehicles. I believe they are rarer than hen's teeth, but I would love to see mine run as a 5 or 6 car set. No doubt an unfulfilled dream!?

 

Tod

 

If you own a razor saw and can find some ordinary Trix Mk1s (usually available quite cheaply due to their odd scale), take a look at some of Clive Mortimore's work (Sheffield Exchange thread).

[The Johnster]

Yes, they sold mk1s in lined green dmu livery as intermediate vehicles for the TransPennine.  They were incorrect; the corridor MBSL was the 5 compartment BCK and not the correct 6 compartment second class vehicle, and had no engines under the floor, the Buffet was the loco hauled type, and the open TSL, the nearest miss, had a corridor; all these 'intermediate' vehicles had the Commonwealth bogies from the loco hauled stock and all that had been done was to produce them in the green lined livery with the correct NE series coach numbers.  If you have the DMC end vehicles and want to make a 5 car set (AFAIK no TransPennines ever ran in a 6 car formation), I would suggest using Mainline mk1s, which have a suitable window profile, cut and shut to provide the correct outline, dmu engine, heater, and exhausts added, and retrofit dmu bogies which (I think Bachmann do!).  

 

Formations were reduced during the units' later blue and grey liveried careers to 4 or 3 cars sets to maintain timekeeping and reliability.  I think I am correct in stating that none of these sets were ever painted in the plain blue livery, being regarded as main line express stock from the outset; I remember them from as early as 1966 and they were already appearing in full blue/grey by then.  

[Ravenser]

25 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Yes. Trix never made correct vehicles for the intermediate cars. Trans-Pennine units are about as complicated as it comes when reproducing a DMU with 5 different types (IIRC) of bodywork for six vehicles. Surely the reason that no other manufacturer has wanted to produce this popular (iconic even) DMU.

 

So they just sold ordinary Mk1s in DMU green.

 

My recollection is that they were not popular with the travelling public in the 70s/80s , and had a bad reputation for unreliability amongst enthusiasts . Their replacement by 31s + mixed mk1/Mk2 on the Transpennine  South service at the end of 1983 was regarded as a service upgrade involving a better class of train than the tired unreliable failed dross hitherto used between Hull/Cleethorpes and Manchester... In other words , at the end they were regarded  not much better than Pacers are today

[Joseph_Pestell]

5 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

My recollection is that they were not popular with the travelling public in the 70s/80s , and had a bad reputation for unreliability amongst enthusiasts . Their replacement by 31s + mixed mk1/Mk2 on the Transpennine  South service at the end of 1983 was regarded as a service upgrade involving a better class of train than the tired unreliable failed dross hitherto used between Hull/Cleethorpes and Manchester... In other words , at the end they were regarded  not much better than Pacers are today

 

I was not referring to the general travelling public but to rail enthusiasts. We are a perverse lot who seem to take special interest in locos that were not very good (D600, Class 17, etc), lines that could never turn a profit, etc.

 

Being a Southerner (by residence), I did not get much opportunity to experience them myself - just one trip I think from Leeds to Manchester.

[Joseph_Pestell]

34 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

AFAIK no TransPennines ever ran in a 6 car formation), I would suggest using Mainline mk1s,

 

They were certainly built as 6-car units. I will see if I can find an uncoprighted photo of them running as such.

 

Edit: Yes, certainly photos there on the 'net of Class 124s running with six cars, but all in green livery. By the time we get to blue/grey, they seem to have lost their catering vehicle and down to five cars and then to four cars. Actually a bit of a bonus for us modellers.

Edited July 19, 2019 by Joseph_Pestell

[SweenyTod1]

Thanks for all your comments, very informative and useful should I embark on a major cut and shut project. My apologies for hijacking the thread, but  before I go, some info from Ian Allen spotter books.

1962- no photos of these, but all other DMUS shown in green with speed whiskers, lists:-

Motor Composite, 17 vehicles

Non driving Motor brake 2nd- 17 vehicles

Trailer Buffet- 8 vehicles

Trailer 2nd- 9 vehicles.

A later edition, ISBN 0 7110 0645 8 (date unknown) shows a blue/grey TP unit, 124/1 leading, looks like a 7 car consist?!!!  124/2 also listed. Both 124/1 and 124/2 under the heading (6, Trans Pennine), So even more confusing. Regarding the date, both the prototype APT and HST are shown and listed as of 1972 The service

HST sets "to be introduced", so I presume the booklet dates 1973, but I could be wrong, I usually am!!

Hope that is helpful,

 

Tod

[melmoth]

ISBN 0711006458 is the 1975 edition of the DMU guide, so information correct to the end of 1974. 

Edited July 20, 2019 by melmoth

[The Stationmaster]

On 19/07/2019 at 16:27, Ravenser said:

 

My recollection is that they were not popular with the travelling public in the 70s/80s , and had a bad reputation for unreliability amongst enthusiasts . Their replacement by 31s + mixed mk1/Mk2 on the Transpennine  South service at the end of 1983 was regarded as a service upgrade involving a better class of train than the tired unreliable failed dross hitherto used between Hull/Cleethorpes and Manchester... In other words , at the end they were regarded  not much better than Pacers are today

They were very comfortable trains in which to travel in their early days but then they were basically well finished Mk1 coaches which rode superbly.  Way ahead of a Pacer by any measure but especially so in terms of passenger comfort and ride.  I suspect that any public disenchantment with them came as they deteriorated mechanically and became unreliable.   Although after a certain Maintenance Engineer took over at Hull and took them (and the final Swindon build of InterCity units which had been transferred from the WR) in hand reliability improved markedly.

[SweenyTod1]

5 hours ago, melmoth said:

ISBN 0711006458 is the 1975 edition of the DMU guide, so information correct to the end of 1974. 

Thanks for that, I will mark my copy with the date. I have the 1978 edition, so missing a few years.

 

Tod

[The Johnster]

6 hours ago, melmoth said:

ISBN 0711006458 is the 1975 edition of the DMU guide, so information correct to the end of 1974. 

 

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

They were very comfortable trains in which to travel in their early days but then they were basically well finished Mk1 coaches which rode superbly.  Way ahead of a Pacer by any measure but especially so in terms of passenger comfort and ride.  I suspect that any public disenchantment with them came as they deteriorated mechanically and became unreliable.   Although after a certain Maintenance Engineer took over at Hull and took them (and the final Swindon build of InterCity units which had been transferred from the WR) in hand reliability improved markedly.

I remember them from visits to an older sister living conveniently for me as a Cardiff trainspotter in Selby in '66 and '67, and rode on to Stalybridge on a Manchester shed bash in '66.  My main complaint was that there was no second class next to a cab, but found them comfortable and fast, as good as a Swindon 4 car Intercity, and with the same rasp from the exhausts.  I liked the look as well, especially in the lined green livery with syp.  

[sagaguy]

Trix Mk1 coaches are very good coaches & very free running especially if fitted with modern Hornby coach wheels.Being slightly under scale at 3.87mm as opposed to 4mm scale,they are a trifle undersize but so long as you don`t mix the scales in the same train,they look fine.Here`s my Wrenn Royal Scot with a train of Trix coaches refinished in crimson & cream.

A couple of my Trix coaches.

 

I have two Trix Transpennine units,green & blue grey.The centre coaches are standard Trix with NE numbering.,a short movie of my green model.

 

                      Ray.