Lima Wagonlits (abandoned "Night Ferry" sleeper car alternative)

[SteveyDee68]

Asking the combined wisdom of RMWeb...

 

Have just acquired a Lima “HO” Wagonlits blue livery sleeper coach... Is this model, to the best of the Forum’s knowledge, true HO, or over-scale?

 

Wanting to create a “representative” Night Ferry train without paying £100+ per etched coach kit!

 

Many thanks

 

Steve

Edited July 8, 2020 by SteveyDee68
THREAD TOPIC CLOSED

[Andy Hayter]

I think (but I stand to be corrected) that the only scale rtr  F type CIWL coaches used in the Night Ferry formations came from LS Models/Heris around 10 years ago.   These were not cheap but not the price you quote either. 

 

https://www.ebay.fr/itm/LS-Models-SNCF-voiture-lit-type-F-epoque-IV/223619700447?hash=item3410c5d6df:g:NRkAAOSwxx1cTxTf

 

https://www.ebay.fr/itm/LS-Models-49127-CIWL-Schlafwagen-Type-F-blau-Ep3-mit-Emblem-Faltenbalg-NEU-OVP/283476560012?hash=item420085088c:g:xIgAAOSwc5haxg5l

 

https://www.ebay.fr/itm/LS-MODELS-49126-CIWL-carrozza-tipo-F-livrea-blu-1-e-2-cl-nr-serv-3792-ep-II/183184893027?hash=item2aa6aba463:g:0SkAAOSwqHta1022

 

https://www.ebay.fr/itm/LS-Models-49121-3tlg-Liegewagen-Typ-F-CIWL-1937-II-1-2-Klasse-DC/303204081816?hash=item46985f2098:g:hMMAAOSwmAJdFNAc

 

I don't know the Lima model but I suspect it may be more generic than accurate and will be more likely to represent a train blue coach or something running through to Italy.

[Guest JiLo]

DId Revell do a plastic kit for the CIWL?  Seem to remember it

[John Isherwood]

5 minutes ago, JiLo said:

DId Revell do a plastic kit for the CIWL?  Seem to remember it

 

Do a Google search on Revell CIWL Wagon Lits.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Guest JiLo]

1 minute ago, cctransuk said:

 

Do a Google search on Revell CIWL Wagon Lits.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

My memory served me right!

[sncf231e]

The LS Models CIWL Night sleeper coaches (the so called type F CIWL sleeper) as mentioned here above are correct. The type F or Night Ferry sleepers were made to run from Paris to London, crossing the channel on a ferryboat.  They were smaller than all other CIWL sleepers and had entrance doors only on one end. Lima (or Revell) did not make a type F sleeper.  Jouef made one (also available as Playcraft) which is (just) acceptable. An overview of many CIWL cars can be found in an e-book I made on the subject: http://sncf231e.nl/ciwl-carriages-by-fredsmall/ . Top 2 pictures LS Models, next three Jouef:

 

Regards

Fred

 

 

Edited August 18, 2019 by sncf231e

[Il Grifone]

Lima Wagon-Lits are likely to be H0 scale in profile and TT in length. It used to be a common failing of Continental coach models and they were no exception. Later models were better in this respect but I don't think there was anything C.I.W.L..

[Andy Hayter]

Some of the later CIWL models look (and I stress look because I have not run a ruler over them) to be scale length; however none of the ones I have seen look remotely like the F type Night Ferry cars - all being models of the last generation CIWL coaches.

[sncf231e]

There is no scale length CIWL car made by Lima. Most earlier Lima models are not based on a CIWL prototype at all! The modern Lima sleeper is based on the CIWL type MU but should be 30 cm and is only 26 cm. See here a comparison between a correct length ACME (bottom) and a Lima (top) CIWL MU sleeper:

 

 

These pictures are from an overview of many CIWL cars I made in an e-book: http://sncf231e.nl/ciwl-carriages-by-fredsmall/

Regards

Fred

 

[SteveyDee68]

Thank you (belatedly) for all the information.  The Lima coach I acquired is as per the top photograph in Fred's last post, and is definitely HO scale.  Something else for me to sail out into the waters of eBay in the hopes that it might be of use to somebody (unless the bogies are of any use?!)

 

Steve S

[Atlantic Coast Express]

Interestingly, there appears to be quite a lot of interest in the recent past surrounding the CIWL Wagon-Lits Night Ferry Type F Sleepers, and across all the model railway gauges. Bit of digging around it appears Playcraft Railways may well have there in the mid-1960s with these couple of consumer advertisements. Have never seen one of these in the flesh so to speak. There’s a nice blog on Night Ferry at https://shamrocktrains.com/posts/night-ferry/ and a complete chapter in Martyn Pring’s 2020 book ‘Boat Trains: The English Channel & Ocean Liner Specials’   https://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/Boat-Trains-The-English-Channel-and-Ocean-Liner-Specials-Hardback/p/18521

[sncf231e]

9 hours ago, Atlantic Coast Express said:

Interestingly, there appears to be quite a lot of interest in the recent past surrounding the CIWL Wagon-Lits Night Ferry Type F Sleepers, and across all the model railway gauges.

I do not get the impression of any interest (except from me) about the Night Ferry. But for those who want to know about Night Ferry sleeper models, I wrote an article about it which can be read or downloaded from my website (for free of course):  http://sncf231e.nl/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/The-Night-Ferry-sleeper-modelled.pdf

 

Regards

Fred

[MaryleboneCross]

Evening all. Bonsoir!

any examples of conversions of RTR stock to form something resembling the Night train CIWL F cars? I have a rake of 3 Triang CIWLs and what these have a collector’s value, (Triang aficionados look away)   I have started to upgrade 1 for a night train set. Dare I attack the other 2? The shapeways printed models are out of my price range although like some others I was wondering whether Airfix centenary stock could be upgraded. My Triang CIWL has had a paint of the interior, a resort of the roof, pint of the under frame and flush glazed windows. Name boards by Sankey models and will get some numbering going on too if I order some transfers. Trying to keep the spirit of the Triang model alive, just a little updated. Of course it’s still nothing like the F stock of the night train but it’s blue….
first post on here - might be thrown out for the abomination of a Triang classic but let me know what you think? 

[Andy Hayter]

It really depends on how accurate you want to be.

Clearly it is a shortie.

The bogies are completely wrong.

The oval toilet window should be rectangular.  Likewise the door windows.

The crest is crude.

The ventilation on the windows should not be there.  The windows are rectangular.

 

 

[sncf231e]

Is the coach name board on the other side "Le Ferry de Nuit" 😉? 

Andy is right, not many things correct, but is is blue. 

And on the compartment side there are ventilators on the (rectangular) windows.

Regards

Fred

 

[sncf231e]

2 hours ago, MaryleboneCross said:

might be thrown out for the abomination of a Triang classic but let me know what you think? 

 

Of course it is your choice, but according to the price guide of Pat Hammond a Triang  R625 car has a value of 20-30, while a much better Playcraft P863 car has a value of  7-10. The Playcraft one is a much better starting point for a type F sleeper, so you maybe made the wrong choice.

Regards

Fred

[Il Grifone]

This is a 'collectable' dating from around 1960*, being Tri-angs release of their standard British Pullman car in C.I.W.L. livery. It is short in length (of course), but this could perhaps be overlooked as in the U.K. it travelled at night? It is (approximately - it is Tri-ang!) to 4mm scale wheras all the other models are H0 (either in 1/87 or 1/80 (a Rivarossi speciality though they were not alone) scales.

* The one that got away from my collection - I have all the other five variants.

[sncf231e]

2 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

 all the other models are H0 (either in 1/87 or 1/80 (a Rivarossi speciality though they were not alone) scales.

RivaRossi never made a CIWL type F (Night Ferry) sleeper.

Regards

Fred

[MaryleboneCross]

Thanks for the replies and comments. 
parking the two other Triang CIWLs for the mo. Wondering if I could stick a couple Triang pullmans together, square up the windows close up the doors at one end and see what that gives me…..

those of a nervous disposition look away. 

incidentally this all came about from having a set of Joueff/playcraft pullmans labelled london /Paris as a kid. I sold these for a respectable sum on EBay as they always just looked too small on a OO layout and the Triang sit at the right platform height at least. 

 

 

[Il Grifone]

On 11/06/2024 at 13:07, sncf231e said:

RivaRossi never made a CIWL type F (Night Ferry) sleeper.

Regards

Fred

 

Yes unfortunately. I was referring to their range in general.

Pre circa 1990 of course. Later production is 1/87 scale. There was a general improvement in both Lima and Rivarossi ranges about this time, unfortunately with a large increase in price.

I could not justify around 40,000 lire for a coach, especially as Standa* were selling off older Lima coaches at 5,000 lire!  I stocked up on the DSB version.**  (Exchange rate roughly 2500 lire = £1. Lire now Euro of course).

 

*The Italian version of Woolworths. Both no longer in existence alas!

 

**These were built on the short U.I.C. underframe, so Lima's 1:100 length is not so bad, especially as they wisely shortened the design by omitting two windows. I did try a 'cut and shut' on two to make a 26.4m long German coach. This is still awaiting lettering..... Transfers were available but seem to have disappeared from the market.

 

Seeing the old ad. suggests that I must dig out my Playcraft SNCF Pacific (231C IIRC?).

 

Beware Tri-ang coaches sit about 2mm high at the solebar. Proper bogies will cure this problem.

Edited June 14 by Il Grifone
Two windows (Per side obviously) not one - Bad memory - old age

[doctor quinn]

On 12/06/2024 at 11:12, Il Grifone said:

 

**These were built on the short U.I.C. underframe, so Lima's 1:100 length is not so bad, especially as they wisely shortened the design by omitting a window. I did try a 'cut and shut' on two to make a 26.4m long German coach. This is still awaiting lettering..... Transfers were available but seem to have disappeared from the market.

 

Thanks, that's handy to know about Lima DSB coaches.  Andreas Nothaft offers DB coach decals https://www.modellbahndecals.de/

[Il Grifone]

Thanks for the link, but there doesn't seem to be the masses of U.I.C. lettering which is generously applied to Continental rolling stock.

This is what I was trying to produce:

https://www.hobbyprof.nl/vn59663-db-uic-x-compartment-passenger-coach-2nd-class

 

However this price is way above ten thousand lire, even allowing for inflation!

And this is where I started:

https://www.hattons.co.uk/547783/lima_309164_passenger_coach_84035_of_the_dsb/stockdetail

 

Edit

I did find this:

 

https://www.modellbahndecals.de/Decals-Gueterwagen/Komplettbeschriftungen/Epoche-3-sonstige-108/Daenemark-307/Nass-Schiebebilder--Gueterwagen-Komplettbeschriftung-Ial--Kohlewagen--DSB--Epoche-3--Artikel-Nummer--8175.html

 

but there are two snags: 1. the period is too early and 2. they are for a coal wagon.

 

They do have "DSB" in various sizes, but that was not really the problem.

Edited June 14 by Il Grifone

[doctor quinn]

Is this any help? https://spierling.dk/personvogne/380-941-b-vogn-rode-intercity-vogne.html#/1-skala-h0_1_87/18-vognlob-uden
 

it looks like the number and coach type are customisable, I've used his wagon markings which are very good 

[MaryleboneCross]

As way of an update. So I found a couple of the playcraft Joueff models on eBay. This one arrived today and another purchased today for 99p! 
small gasp of glee when I removed the roof to reveal the interior! 
interestingly, at Ho scale they are only about  8mm longer than the Triang model. Looks like it might be possible to lower the chassis and add OO bogies to get it up to look more of the correct height for OO at least? Possibly add new corridor connectors too. 

[MaryleboneCross]

So a new block between the coach underside and new Lima bogies has raised the Jouef carriage up to the height of the Triangs and to 4mm platform height. New plasticard sole bars so the carriage doesn’t appear to be riding in the sky. Tried to 3D print a new door to conceal the fact that the HO passenger door is tiny for 4mm. Not very successful on the first attempt so a new batch just printing off now along with some new battery boxes and tanks for the underside.