Wagon identification

[jwealleans]

One of the prototype photos being used to make up trains for Graham Nicholas' Shap layout has presented us with a wagon we can't identify.  The picture is below, reproduced for educational/research purposes - I'm sorry, I can't credit the photographer but I'm sure Graham will if he happens by. 

 

 

The wagon we're interested in is the ninth from the front, between the sheeted load on a 1 plank/conflat and what looks like a steel high.  It's been suggested that it's a long palvan, maybe a prototype, but I don't have any books on wagons that recent and can't find anything in what I do have.   We did find another photo also on/near Shap of what looked like 3 of them in a train, so it may be they were something which worked locally.

 

Thanks for looking.

Edited August 23, 2019 by jwealleans
Can't spell.

[Fat Controller]

27 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

One of the prototype photos being used to make up trains for Graham Nicholas' Shap layout has presented us with a wagon we can't identify.  The picture is below, reproduced for educational/research purposes - I'm sorry, I can't credit the photographer but I'm sure Graham will if he happens by. 

 

 

The wagon we're interested in is the ninth from the front, between the sheeted load on a 1 plank/conflat and what looks like a steel high.  It's been suggested that it's a long palvan, maybe a prototype, but I don't have any books on wagons that recent and can't find anything in what I do have.   We did find another photo also on/near Shap of what looked like 3 of them in a train, so it may be they were something which worked locally.

 

Thanks for looking.

Not 100% certain, but it might be one of the later builds of Palvan, such as thoes built for 'Izal' traffic 

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brizalvan

BTW, I notice the brake van has several milk tankers behind it- not seen that on a 'normal' freight before.

[jwealleans]

Thanks, Brian.  That is in line with what has already been suggested. Does anyone do a model of that van?

 

I think the milk tankers were part of what attracted Graham and the chaps to the train.  I assume they were picked up en route, either where time was tight or shunting was awkward so they couldn't be placed inside the BV.

[SP Steve]

Hi Jonathan,

 

going along with Brian's suggestion could it be a Dia 1/223 Palvan which had similar characteristics to the "Izal" vans? The main difference was the doors were cupboard style rather than sliding - comparison of your image to those Paul Bartlett has of 1/223 vans would suggest that it's very similar, see the following:

 

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brheinzpalvan

 

Edited August 23, 2019 by SP Steve
Link to PB site correction

[Wickham Green]

20 minutes ago, SP Steve said:

Hi Jonathan,

 

going along with Brian's suggestion could it be a Dia 1/223 Palvan which had similar characteristics to the "Izal" vans? The main difference was the doors were cupboard style rather than sliding - comparison of your image to those Paul Bartlett has of 1/223 vans would suggest that it's very similar, see the following:

 

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brheinzpalvan

 

Looks more like it ........ the horizontal framing on a 1/221 would have been conspicuous.

 

it's certainly an odd looking train - just about every 'non-standard' four-wheeler you can think of ( plus the fish van ) and only one 'normal' van and one 'normal' open ............... you'd never see that in real life of course - except here !

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, jwealleans said:

Thanks, Brian.  That is in line with what has already been suggested. Does anyone do a model of that van?

 

I think the milk tankers were part of what attracted Graham and the chaps to the train.  I assume they were picked up en route, either where time was tight or shunting was awkward so they couldn't be placed inside the BV.

No need to place the miltas inside the van provided they comply with the Brake Regulations (which they do in this instance).  As you assume they were most likely marshalled like that for the convenience of attaching or detaching somewhere enroute.

[Phil Bullock]

Great photo cant help with the wagon - but reverting to lococentricity isnt that Sir William Himself? how are the might fallen.....

[hmrspaul]

38 minutes ago, SP Steve said:

Hi Jonathan,

 

going along with Brian's suggestion could it be a Dia 1/223 Palvan which had similar characteristics to the "Izal" vans? The main difference was the doors were cupboard style rather than sliding - comparison of your image to those Paul Bartlett has of 1/223 vans would suggest that it's very similar, see the following:

 

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brheinzpalvan

 

Both of the main Heinz factories were near the WCML - at Harlesden and near Wigan. These vans certainly worked from Harlesden. That factory is now closed and the Wigan area one is enormous - recently on one of the TV series about how modern food is made Inside the factory with vast amounts of road vehicle movements.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._J._Heinz,_Wigan

 

The LMS design shocvan behind the loco is nearly as unusual!

 

Paul

[SP Steve]

The current Heinz factory at Kitt Green, which came into full production in 1959 has never been rail connected but prior to this the company had another Wigan facility at Standish which was served by rail.

 

This was the former Bradley Hall Ministry of Supply site which had new sidings installed in 1940 to connect it to the WCML. Heinz leased the buildings with responsibility for the rail connection passing to them in 1946. As Kitt Green came on line, Heinz scaled back the Standish operation with the sidings being taken out of use by 1962.

 

The Harlesden facility seemed to be a much bigger rail head according to this photograph:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/32413393@N00/2642263240/

 

If the van is a 1/223 type the number range according to Dave Larkin was a prototype numbered B781751 (lettered "To Be Returned To Willesden") and BR782854 - BR782872.

 

The fifth vehicle back, a Conflat, appears to my eyes to be loaded with a Scarab tractor unit while the eighth, also a Conflat, is conveying a container which appears to have been covered with a tarpaulin suggesting a defective roof.  Given this and the very ad-hoc consist could it be a working of stock destined for repair?

Edited August 23, 2019 by SP Steve
Amended link to Flickr

[jwealleans]

Graham referred to the train as the 'Maiden Lane Perishables', but I don't know whether that's from a caption, an assumption or anything more specific.

 

I reckon the road vehicle 5 back is a Leyland FG, but what Conflat is it on?  I was going with a BR Lowfit for that one.

[SP Steve]

16 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

I reckon the road vehicle 5 back is a Leyland FG, but what Conflat is it on?  I was going with a BR Lowfit for that one.

 

Think your correct with that Jonathan as there doesn't appear to be any chain pockets evident so not a Conflat wagon (was concentrating more on the load!).

 

Found the following entry re: the 'Maiden Lane' title which may throw a little more light on the working:

https://www.national-preservation.com/threads/willesden-duchesses.235641/page-3

 

The following post (number 53) gives:

 

Quote

Just to clear-up the connection with Maiden Lane, Cross has another two Duchess hauled such trains in the book - he describes that the 'Maiden Lane' was Carlisle's unofficially named goods, conveying foodstuffs and perishables to London's markets. The trains are made up of an assortment of vehicles, cattle wagons, milk tanks, and those white coloured insulated containers that we used to see.

 

 

[The Johnster]

Up to 2 vehicles could be marshalled behind the brake van provided:-

 

.The train was fully fitted and the van through piped. 

 

.A brake continuity test had been carried out with that loco and the brakes proved to be working on both vehicles.  

 

The rearmost vehicle carried the tail lamp of course and as the train was fully fitted there was no requirement for side lamps to be displayed on the van. 

 

Fully fitted express freights on the ECML, especially the fish trains, which ran to very tight timings, often had 2 vehicles behind the van to steady the ride a bit for the guard!

 

Authority for this was provided in the General Appendix (to the rules and regs).

Edited August 23, 2019 by The Johnster

[Clive Mortimore]

12 hours ago, jwealleans said:

One of the prototype photos being used to make up trains for Graham Nicholas' Shap layout has presented us with a wagon we can't identify.  The picture is below, reproduced for educational/research purposes - I'm sorry, I can't credit the photographer but I'm sure Graham will if he happens by. 

 

 

The wagon we're interested in is the ninth from the front, between the sheeted load on a 1 plank/conflat and what looks like a steel high.  It's been suggested that it's a long palvan, maybe a prototype, but I don't have any books on wagons that recent and can't find anything in what I do have.   We did find another photo also on/near Shap of what looked like 3 of them in a train, so it may be they were something which worked locally.

 

Thanks for looking.

Hi Jonathan,

 

It might be worth downloading the BR wagon diagram books form the Barrowmore Group's website. I have even downloaded the ones I lent them to scan as sometimes it is easier to look on the computer than pull them off the bookshelf.

Edited August 23, 2019 by Clive Mortimore