Imaginary Locomotives

[AlfaZagato]

3 hours ago, Ohmisterporter said:

Harking back to steam haulage in tunnels were the footplatemen ever issued with any kind of respirator or gas mask? I know life was cheap in Victorian days but was anyone asphixiated whilst working a train through a tunnel?

Bit later that 'Victorian,' but Southern Pacific had SCBA gear for the snow sheds, before the cab-forwards.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, queensquare said:

The new, lager, turntable was installed in 1935

 

So if that was in response to Col. Trench's comment on the inability to turn the 2-8-0s, there had been no hurry. Trench says the enginemen were divided in opinion on tender-first running. The date suggests it has more to do with the introduction of 4-6-0s on the Midland line.

[toby_tl10]

On 14/02/2023 at 02:30, dave75 said:

Was there ever a drawing of the  Robinson Garrett would be very interesting to see the differences between what Robinson proposed with his design and what Gresley delivered. I believe the fireman would have had a slightly easier job providing steam to 4 cylinders rather than the  6 on 69999.

I read that to Robinson asked for 2 Garretts but Gresley cut the order to one.

 

I believe banking was preferred on the Wath branch as there were concerns about drawgear snapping and I don't think the branch had catchpoints.

I imagine it'd be largely unchanged above the running board, just swap the O2 motion with O4 motion. So 4 cylinders in total, Stephenson valve gear and different wheels.

 

I can't help but think what if Gresley based the Garratt on his O1 (later O3) instead of O2. As you said, with 4 cylinders, the crew and boiler might be happier. Of course, the tractive effort would drop from 72,000 lbf to 66,000 lbf.

[queensquare]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

So if that was in response to Col. Trench's comment on the inability to turn the 2-8-0s, there had been no hurry. Trench says the enginemen were divided in opinion on tender-first running. The date suggests it has more to do with the introduction of 4-6-0s on the Midland line.

 

The tender cabs on the 7Fs werent popular because they tended to fill with smoke in the tunnels but also because it made manouvering red hot, glowing, fire irons on the footplate problematic to say the least. The loco involved in the accident was, from memory, 89, which never had a tender cab.

I doubt the bigger turntable was in response to the report on the 1929 accident as tender first running for 7Fs, indeed any freight locos on the S&D was common to end because there was never a turntable at Norton or Radstock where the coal traffic originated.

The bigger turntable at Bath was paid for, according to newspaper reports, as part of a government scheme to alleviate local unemployment. It did, along with bridge strengthening on the Mangotsfield line, give the 4-6-0s access to Bath,

 

Jerry

[rodent279]

I wonder what the rate of chest/respiratory/bronchial conditions amongst enginemen was? Possibly difficult to measure, due to the fact that most probably smoked like chimneys anyway, but I wonder if there are any official statistics showing whether enginemen were more likely to succumb in old age to some sort of chest or respiratory disease?

[Northmoor]

42 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

I wonder what the rate of chest/respiratory/bronchial conditions amongst enginemen was? Possibly difficult to measure, due to the fact that most probably smoked like chimneys anyway, but I wonder if there are any official statistics showing whether enginemen were more likely to succumb in old age to some sort of chest or respiratory disease?

I don't know about respiratory problems, but firemen never had an ounce of spare fat on them.  You either worked or sweated it off.

 

Many years ago I happened to see an episode of Blind Date where the previous week's winners had been on a preserved railway.  The bloke looked like he spent a lot of time in the gym (mostly on the machines in front of a mirror, IYSWIM) and for the cameras, was allowed on the footplate to shovel on a couple of rounds of coal.  He smirked as if to say how easy it was.  I thought it would be interesting to see how fit he really was, getting him to fire a loco from Carlisle to Ais Gill, with 12 on.....

[rockershovel]

3 hours ago, AlfaZagato said:

Bit later that 'Victorian,' but Southern Pacific had SCBA gear for the snow sheds, before the cab-forwards.

Wasn't there an issue about crews on the LNER Garratt being issued with breathing sets? 

 

From memory they were issued in common, which would have been common practice (and still is) for such gear, unless individually owned and this was the supposed problem. I suspect that "twice the work for the same pay" was the REAL issue, although breathing air from a rubber hose trailing below a steam locomotive doesn't sound attractive 

[AlfaZagato]

Our unions probably took the same issue, tbh.   Obviously, the Cab-Forwards happened.

[John Besley]

Read Mendip Enginemen for an account of Pete Smith and Donald Beal on a Westcountry that lost its feet in the tunnel... 

 

There was also an incident in the I think Italian Alps where a train slipped to a stand and not only the crew died but a number of passengers where gassed as well - during WW2 I seem to remember reading about it 

[Compound2632]

27 minutes ago, John Besley said:

There was also an incident in the I think Italian Alps where a train slipped to a stand and not only the crew died but a number of passengers where gassed as well - during WW2 I seem to remember reading about it 

 

That number being over 500: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balvano_train_disaster.

Not the Alps but southern Italy.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Compound2632

[westerner]

There is a very vivid description of being"gassed " on the footplate in Bob Barnett's "Dean Forest Footplte Memories"

[Flying Pig]

On 17/02/2023 at 16:48, rodent279 said:

I wonder what the rate of chest/respiratory/bronchial conditions amongst enginemen was? Possibly difficult to measure, due to the fact that most probably smoked like chimneys anyway, but I wonder if there are any official statistics showing whether enginemen were more likely to succumb in old age to some sort of chest or respiratory disease?

 

More likely than all the other folk who worked in dust- or chemical-laden industries and lived in their polluted surroundings?

[rodent279]

1 hour ago, Flying Pig said:

 

More likely than all the other folk who worked in dust- or chemical-laden industries and lived in their polluted surroundings?

Probably similar to miners & steelworkers. 

[rockershovel]

On 17/02/2023 at 18:56, AlfaZagato said:

Our unions probably took the same issue, tbh.   Obviously, the Cab-Forwards happened.

Different issue, though. The Cab-Forwards were a response to a well-established major traffic route, not single locos conducting banking duties over short distances. 

 

Were the earlier US breathing hoods true BA, or just ducted ventilation like the LNER sets?

 

I have on occasion, worked while wearing BA (it's one of those things you encounter from time to time in the oilpatch) and it's a disgusting, lung-bursting business. 

 

 

[rockershovel]

8 hours ago, rodent279 said:

Probably similar to miners & steelworkers. 

I doubt that. Loco cabs were nothing if not well-ventilated. Miners' problems came from exposure to dust, steelworkers' from intense heat and the sulphides and other pollutants. 

 

That said I'm sure that a lifetime spent on a loco footplate brought its own debilitating consequences. I had a great-uncle who had been a cleaner, passed fireman who left after an accident to set up as a pig breeder with his compo, who would occasionally remark that he had never regretted leaving the railway. 

[62613]

On 13/02/2023 at 18:30, dave75 said:

I read that to Robinson asked for 2 Garretts but Gresley cut the order to one

Would Gresley have been in charge of spending decisions directly, or would that have been a sub - committee of the board of directors?

[rodent279]

They might have been well ventilated, but I'll bet a steam loco footplate exposes a fireman to a fair amount of coal dust.

[The Johnster]

While we are discussing exposure to dangerous materials and the possible effect they may have on exposed workers many years later, first generation dmus were in service from around 1956 until the late 80s.  Their heating systems worked with ductcing and fans blowing engine manifold heat about the train, and were very effective, but the ducting was lined with asbestos sheeting, from which the units' famous vibrations usually ensured a good bit of lethal brown asbestos dust blown into the drivers face if he switched the heating on after a few hours running, such as a cool summer evening.  Couldn't have done the passengers much good either. 

[John Besley]

11 hours ago, rockershovel said:

Different issue, though. The Cab-Forwards were a response to a well-established major traffic route, not single locos conducting banking duties over short distances. 

 

Were the earlier US breathing hoods true BA, or just ducted ventilation like the LNER sets?

 

I have on occasion, worked while wearing BA (it's one of those things you encounter from time to time in the oilpatch) and it's a disgusting, lung-bursting business. 

 

 

[rockershovel]

6 hours ago, John Besley said:

 

I had assumed from that picture, that they were true BA fed from cylinders (given the pipe size, and that the US developed such systems long before we did because of their experience with sour crude oil and high altitude flight) but I don't know. 

[DenysW]

 

A Prussian P8 of 1908, as the Roco model, shown in DRG livery. From Roco's blurb: 4,000 produced up to 1926, 1180 hp, lasted in service until 1972 in West Germany. From Wikipedia: Axle load: 17.4 tons/axle, cylinder 22.6" so too big for UK loading gauge outside.

 

So why didn't we like this halfway house between wide-grate and narrow-grate engines? It looks like GNR could do good wide-grate Atlantics (at the time as the P8) that fed into their wide-grate Pacifics, but that virtually everyone in the UK struggled to go from narrow-grate 4-4-0s up to successful 4-6-0s. Why not copy Germans with this medium-grate design?

[tythatguy1312]

1 hour ago, DenysW said:

 

A Prussian P8 of 1908, as the Roco model, shown in DRG livery. From Roco's blurb: 4,000 produced up to 1926, 1180 hp, lasted in service until 1972 in West Germany. From Wikipedia: Axle load: 17.4 tons/axle, cylinder 22.6" so too big for UK loading gauge outside.

 

So why didn't we like this halfway house between wide-grate and narrow-grate engines? It looks like GNR could do good wide-grate Atlantics (at the time as the P8) that fed into their wide-grate Pacifics, but that virtually everyone in the UK struggled to go from narrow-grate 4-4-0s up to successful 4-6-0s. Why not copy Germans with this medium-grate design?

British thinking of the time, to put it lightly, was highly based on the success of 4-4-0's, engines which traditionally carried narrow fireboxes. I'm frankly unsure of the reason Ivatt elected for a wide firebox on the Large Atlantics, though it wouldn't exactly shock me if the GNR's American Influence predated the A1 development considering their ownership of an American 4-2-2 for a few years.


Also of note is that the P8's firebox grate area of 27.98 square feet was entirely achievable with a narrow firebox designs, with the Drummond 4-6-0's carrying significantly larger firebox grates at 31.5 square feet. Now that proved to be less than ideal considering that the Drummond 4-6-0's couldn't be worked hard in the slightest, but it does show that the P8's layout has no real advantage compared to narrow grates.

Edited February 20, 2023 by tythatguy1312

[Compound2632]

20 minutes ago, tythatguy1312 said:

British thinking of the time, to put it lightly, was highly based on the success of 4-4-0's, engines which traditionally carried narrow fireboxes. 

 

Not tradition but physical necessity. Show me a 4-4-0 that doesn't have the grate between the frames and between the coupled axles. 

 

I'm not convinced the problems with Dugald Drummond's 4-6-0s were entirely down to grate design.

[Flying Fox 34F]

2 hours ago, DenysW said:

 

A Prussian P8 of 1908, as the Roco model, shown in DRG livery. From Roco's blurb: 4,000 produced up to 1926, 1180 hp, lasted in service until 1972 in West Germany. From Wikipedia: Axle load: 17.4 tons/axle, cylinder 22.6" so too big for UK loading gauge outside.

 

So why didn't we like this halfway house between wide-grate and narrow-grate engines? It looks like GNR could do good wide-grate Atlantics (at the time as the P8) that fed into their wide-grate Pacifics, but that virtually everyone in the UK struggled to go from narrow-grate 4-4-0s up to successful 4-6-0s. Why not copy Germans with this medium-grate design?

I believe a batch of P8’s were built at the Vulcan Foundry and I also believe one still exists at Sinaia railway station here in Romania.  

I suspect many railway engineers were aware of the larger locomotives being built by Private builders, but these same engineers have to persuade their Directors to spend the pennies on bigger locomotives rather than sticking with what is known already.

 

Paul

[burgundy]

20 minutes ago, Flying Fox 34F said:

I believe a batch of P8’s were built at the Vulcan Foundry and I also believe one still exists at Sinaia railway station here in Romania.  

I suspect many railway engineers were aware of the larger locomotives being built by Private builders, but these same engineers have to persuade their Directors to spend the pennies on bigger locomotives rather than sticking with what is known already.

 

Paul

This one?

According to Chris Bailey's book on Railways of Romania, the first batch of P8s and some second hand examples, sent as WW1 reparations, were German built, but over 200 P8s were built under licence by Malaxa and Resita. There is no mention of any construction by the Vulcan Foundry. I wonder whether the company is actually AG Vulcan Stettin who may have built some of the German locos?

Best wishes 

Eric