Imaginary Locomotives

[JimC]

How close is this to the proposed Midland 4-6-0?

 

 

Cheers

David

 

I tried shortening the boiler on your photo hack by moving the driving wheels together and bringing the bogie back, then I had to move the outside cylinder drive to the middle drivers to not have excess angulation, and now, where's the middle cylinder, it will have to be divided drive like a de Glehn, and the cylinder forward of the smoke box, perhaps the smokebox could be longer and oh, the connecting rods are really too long, perhaps the cylinders need to move back like a de Glehn, the boiler needs to pitch higher to make room for the cylinder and oh good grief, its not easy this imaginary locomotive lark is it. I give up!

 

Edited December 11, 2017 by JimC

[rockershovel]

I tried shortening the boiler on your photo hack by moving the driving wheels together and bringing the bogie back, then I had to move the outside cylinder drive to the middle drivers to not have excess angulation, and now, where's the middle cylinder, it will have to be divided drive like a de Glehn, and the cylinder forward of the smoke box, perhaps the smokebox could be longer and oh, the connecting rods are really too long, perhaps the cylinders need to move back like a de Glehn, the boiler needs to pitch higher to make room for the cylinder and oh good grief, its not easy this imaginary locomotive lark is it. I give up!

 

11000.jpg

Makes quite a handsome, credible loco, though..

[Compound2632]

I tried shortening the boiler on your photo hack by moving the driving wheels together and bringing the bogie back, then I had to move the outside cylinder drive to the middle drivers to not have excess angulation, and now, where's the middle cylinder, it will have to be divided drive like a de Glehn, and the cylinder forward of the smoke box, perhaps the smokebox could be longer and oh, the connecting rods are really too long, perhaps the cylinders need to move back like a de Glehn, the boiler needs to pitch higher to make room for the cylinder and oh good grief, its not easy this imaginary locomotive lark is it. I give up!

 

11000.jpg

 

The proportions are looking good - compare a Robinson atlantic. I do feel that Robinson's Great Central engines give something of an indication of what 20th century Johnson Midland locomotives might have looked like, rather than the more austere appearance of the Deeley/Fowler era.

[FPH 603]

There has been mention of double deckers. Now this one is actually French, but I am sure something similar could find its way on the Wantage Tramway. There were also plans to put an upper deck on the Wisbech tram coaches(might not have been so popular on the Titfield Thunderbolt though).

I have done 3D design for various scales including 1/76.

 

The mention of Double Deckers on here goes back at around page 50 - 51... Brings back memories of when I first joined this forum. This was a fictional Double Deck train based on the NSW Double Deck Interurban design - my namesake. That does look pretty good, I've never seen anything quite like that. I've seen various Double Deck designs, some dating back as far as the 1920's! In Australia, (specifically NSW) Double Deckers were first introduced in 1964, and since then almost all trains in NSW are Double Deck, excluding the CountryLink, Hunter Valley and some of the Newcastle and Blue Mountains services. I could go on further but that would take too long to type and this would be going really off topic.

[Suzie]

Has anyone done a tank version of a 9F? Might need need an extra bogie at the back under the coal bunker of course (2-10-2 or 2-10-4), but it would get rid of the need for turning. 

[rockershovel]

Has anyone done a tank version of a 9F? Might need need an extra bogie at the back under the coal bunker of course (2-10-2 or 2-10-4), but it would get rid of the need for turning.

 

Does running a tank engine in reverse show any difference in the effects of the cylinders? Are they equally stable in either direction?

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Running in 'reverse' seemed to work for these fellas:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tstjzCg1AqQ

[Zomboid]

One of the great things about steam engines (as in the steam operated cylinder assembly) is that they work equally well in either direction.

You could presumably connect a drive to both ends of a cylinder if it would offer any benefit - doubt it's ever been done on a locomotive, but maybe in one of the many other applications.

[Corbs]

Makes me want to attempt a CF 9F again

[Zomboid]

Running in 'reverse' seemed to work for these fellas:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tstjzCg1AqQ

As a fan of the SP, and American steam, that's wonderful...

[runs as required]

Running in 'reverse' seemed to work for these fellas:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tstjzCg1AqQ

Thanks for that link. Ive never seen those movies of the cab-forwards at speed. Presumably all of that late SP steam was oil fired.

The bits of waterside running jogs my memory about fantasising about post Collett cab-forward Swindon steam along Dawlish Warren many years back.

 

What I intended to post up was a photoshopped Bulleid 10C Mogul (if I've understood his numbering correctly from the 21C Pacifics)

 

Looks quite a handsome and powerful beast for pulling those Sunny South through trains from the north from Reading via Redhill through to Margate.- though I'm not sure of its pony truck advantage over a Q1 with its inside cylinders.

This one obviously is something butchered from a late Q1 on a preserved line - possibly the Mid Hants after they sold the (non imaginary) WD 0-6-0 tender conversion (shewn above) on to the East Lancs.

 

dh

Edited December 12, 2017 by runs as required

[Regularity]

One of the great things about steam engines (as in the steam operated cylinder assembly) is that they work equally well in either direction.

 

‘Rocket’, that precursor of the modern steam locomotive, had its cylinders to the rear of the drivers.

You could presumably connect a drive to both ends of a cylinder if it would offer any benefit - doubt it's ever been done on a locomotive, but maybe in one of the many other applications.

Not sure of the benefit: the power will be the same, just shared between the two (sets of) driven wheels, just as by using coupling rods.

[runs as required]

‘Rocket’, that precursor of the modern steam locomotive, had its cylinders to the rear of the drivers.

Not sure of the benefit: the power will be the same, just shared between the two (sets of) driven wheels, just as by using coupling rods.

Am I understanding this aright?

Don't all 'double acting' steam cylinders have pistons with admission either side ? - and the whole mechanism controlled by the "reverser" - either as a lever or a screw gear (which I've never tried).

Fairly crude single cylinder traction engines have a big fly wheel to overcome lack of sophisticated valve gear.

dh

Imgry. Mech Eng.

 

Ed: adding of missed out words

Edited December 12, 2017 by runs as required

[Velopeur]

...not imaginary, someone really did try that!

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...You could presumably connect a drive to both ends of a cylinder if it would offer any benefit - doubt it's ever been done on a locomotive, but maybe in one of the many other applications.

 How much time do you have to spare? http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/balanced/balanced.htm

The main site has hours of joy to offer http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/locoloco.htm

 

Has anyone done a tank version of a 9F? Might need need an extra bogie at the back under the coal bunker of course (2-10-2 or 2-10-4), but it would get rid of the need for turning. 

 You'd want a guiding pony truck both ends given the proven nippiness of the base design. It is feasible not least because there's well tank space between boiler underside and frames to help keep C of G low. Could be arranged as an inverted box tank, with the footplating as the tank top? The relatively low axle load of the 9F means that there is 25 tons to play with in bunker, tanks, coal and water before the drivers reach the 22T main line axle load, and five feet can go on the frames for the rear pony with a 10 - 12T axle load. (UK locos run a little over 2T/ft). Five tons of coal and 2,800 gallons of water should be possible and would give a safe two hour range between water stops.

 

I don't think this is a freight engine at all. Four hundred ton commuter sets worked start to stop at 60+mph average for under the hour services to outer sub destinations up to sixty miles from the city terminus. We can get all those dangerous DC live rail trams off the Southern with this...

[Regularity]

Am I understanding this aright?

 

We may be at cross purposes: I thought you were referring to some arrangement as depicted in Velopeur’s picture, albeit with a single piston in the cylinder, but piston rods at both ends.

Don't all 'double acting' steam cylinders have pistons with admission either side ? - and the whole mechanism controlled by the "reverser" - either as a lever or a screw gear (which I've never tried).

 

Yes, there is power applied in both directions of the piston stroke, but there is a limit to the amount of power being transmitted, whether it is conveyed to the wheels by a single piston rod, or by double ended rods, due to physical laws.

As with coupled wheels versus single drivers, the amount of power transmitted by the piston in the cylinder through the piston rod is fixed by pressure, area, volume, etc, but the reason for having more wheels connected to each other is not to increase the power output (you can’t) but to improve the number of contact points with the rail, increasing the total adhesion and decreasing the risk of slipping (and of breaking rails due to axle loads). If you look at the formula for calculating tractive effort, there is no reference made to number of wheels.

Fairly crude single cylinder traction engines have a big fly wheel to overcome lack of sophisticated valve gear.

 

Partly that, but a flywheel also serves to smooth out the pulses from a single cylinder, and to help prevent the piston stopping dead centre (why we have “quartering” with two or more cylinders) by keeping things ticking over: traction engines usually have a clutch early on in the transmission chain, so that the drive is disconnected from the cylinder, along with using gears to change direction. The energy stored in the big flywheel is sufficient to overcome any “stiction” when starting, otherwise the traction engine would stall - and stick on dead centre - whenever a load was applied.

I am not sure I would call single cylinder traction engines fitted with a big flywheel “crude”, though. They are actually quite sophisticated solutions to the problems inherent in single-cylinder double-acting piston engines.

[Regularity]

...not imaginary, someone really did try that!

 

That’s actually two separate, independent cylinders in a single centrally-pivoted casing, and not drive at each end of a single piston in a single cylinder.

[DavidB-AU]

I think a loco like the Q1 conversion shown in post #2043 done as a 2-6-0, 2-6-2 or even a 4-6-0 would certainly be interesting to see.

What about this one from page 42?

 

 

Cheers

David

[Gilwell Park]

Hi Apologies entered my post in the wrong section.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Gilwell Park

[PhilJ W]

Seeing the 'Cab forwards' in action set me thinking about a cab forward 9F. It would need to be converted to oil burning but the fuel could be contained in a belly tank below the boiler also increasing the water capacity of the tender. Also a much larger tender could be fitted eliminating a number of water stops, perhaps a diesel brake tender with the ballast weights replaced by a water tank.

[rue_d_etropal]

Thanks for that link. Ive never seen those movies of the cab-forwards at speed. Presumably all of that late SP steam was oil fired.

The bits of waterside running jogs my memory about fantasising about post Collett cab-forward Swindon steam along Dawlish Warren many years back.

 

What I intended to post up was a photoshopped Bulleid 10C Mogul (if I've understood his numbering correctly from the 21C Pacifics)

Bulleid 10C.jpg

 

Looks quite a handsome and powerful beast for pulling those Sunny South through trains from the north from Reading via Redhill through to Margate.- though I'm not sure of its pony truck advantage over a Q1 with its inside cylinders.

This one obviously is something butchered from a late Q1 on a preserved line - possibly the Mid Hants after they sold the (non imaginary) WD 0-6-0 tender conversion (shewn above) on to the East Lancs.

 

dh

 

This might lend itself, to a tank version as a 2-6-2T . Or maybe an 0-8-0 version. 

 

Also for anyone considering an 0-8-0 Austerity tank, maybe one of the HO r2r models might be good source for chassis. 

Edited December 13, 2017 by rue_d_etropal

[runs as required]

I've found my ages old cab forward at Dawlish lash up. Can't remember the imagined circumstances - mebbe one of my favourites which is WWII never happened, it was about 1942/3 and Collett had gone. There must have been oil firing here as well as on the Southern Pacific.

Bound to cause a great deal of offence in certain quarters.

 

dh

 

Edit: I've remembered a bit more  - it was to continue with South Wales coal and there is a door to a fireman's fuelling footplate (what a lousy job on non-stop to Newton Abbot!)  Running firebox first was rejected because of no leading bogie and the need for a stoker to use pulverised solid fuel .

Edited December 14, 2017 by runs as required

[The Johnster]

I've found my ages old cab forward at Dawlish lash up. Can't remember the imagined circumstances - mebbe one of my favourites which is WWII never happened, it was about 1942/3 and Collett had gone. There must have been oil firing here as well as on the Southern Pacific.

cab forward castle.jpg

Bound to cause a great deal of offence in certain quarters.

 

dh

 

 

Don't see how that could cause offence.  The Castle has a copper capped chimney and brass safety valve bonnet, ergo, all is well...

[Zomboid]

It's on the basis of the German 05 003, rather than the SP locos though? (The driver is up by the smokebox, so presumably it's coal fired and the fireman is in the middle, leader style - though hopefully in better comfort).

It looks like the kind of forward looking thing that the GWR would never have considered in a million years

[Joseph_Pestell]

It's on the basis of the German 05 003, rather than the SP locos though? (The driver is up by the smokebox, so presumably it's coal fired and the fireman is in the middle, leader style - though hopefully in better comfort).

It looks like the kind of forward looking thing that the GWR would never have considered in a million years

 

Presumably the cab would have to be hinged to swing out of the way. Otherwise, how would one get to the smokebox to clean out tubes?