Imaginary Locomotives

[Regularity]

Gresley's ultimate aim was electricification, if it hadn't been for the LNER's financial problems, WW2 and Gresley's untimely death there could have been an electric A4, 2-Co-1 perhaps?

Would Co-Co and Bo-Bo (as per MSL electrification, designed by Gresley), not have been the likely outcome?

 

Admittedly not imaginary engines, but in LNER green or blue, running out of King’s Cross, and imaginary scene.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Regularity

[BernardTPM]

I did once paint a Tri-ang EM2 in Apple Green and very nice it looked too!

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

.... Nigel Gresley visited Germany in the 1930's and travelled on the 'Flying Hamburger', a new and innovative streamlined diesel train. The LNER could have purchased similar trains, but Nigel Gresley wanted to know how to make the fastest steam locomotive ...This eventually was made into the A4 class we know and love today. (This was written from what I remember, so make any corrections if necessary!)...

 

 Slightly different from that: having sampled the performance of the Flying Hamburger service, this was sufficient for Gresley to request the manufacturer to specify a similar diesel railcar train to work an express London-Newcastle service. The best they could offer was over four hour journey time, no hot food, and relatively cramped accomodation relative to standard LNER coach layouts. That led to experiment with a regular A3 to see what was possible with existing equipment offering hot meal service for the same passenger accomodation ona  four hour schedule, and then for a near doubling of the passenger accomodation while retaining the service provision on a four hour schedule, at which point it was clear that the steam worked service potentially offered near double what that diesel unit design could then deliver.

 

The all streamlined loco and train which came about drew from the Bugatti treatment of the ends, and reports of success with streamlining in the USA (I don't believe anyone took that trip!) and the end result was the Coronation at near three times the capacity of the diesel unit train. (One has to recognise that if the diesel unti had been built and put into service, development would probably have lifted its performance somewhat, but BR were unable to exceed the best the steam locomotive could deliver using diesel, until EE came up with 3,300hp unit based on war time and after developments.

[Suzie]

Odd that they did not come up with the idea of using multiple locomotives to increase the available power from Diesel with either both at one end or HST style. It sounds like a bit of an excuse to stick with the tried and tested steam rather than a good reason.

[Killian keane]

The proposed crewe type fairlie with 5' 9" wheels, 15"x22" cylinders and 100lb working pressure producing 14,322lb of tractive effort, for the french market

[Regularity]

Is hat really a Fairlie? Although not much swivel of the steam bogies would be required, with wheels that big, the boiler diameter would be somewhat restricted.

[Killian keane]

Is hat really a Fairlie? Although not much swivel of the steam bogies would be required, with wheels that big, the boiler diameter would be somewhat restricted.

Well it does say fairlies patent on the cab sidesheets, and the drawing this was prepared from was signed by R.F Fairlie, I have no idea how it was intended to work though, it must have had well tanks for one thing and the coal capacity may have been a bit small for what was undoubtedly intended as a top link express loco

[Hroth]

The proposed crewe type fairlie with 5' 9" wheels, 15"x22" cylinders and 100lb working pressure producing 14,322lb of tractive effort, for the french market

Looks like a copy of "Dr Dolittle" fell back in time through a wormhole.....

[Satan's Goldfish]

An alternative to the 7200 class?

 

 

Would spread the weight a little more and be a bit nicer on tight curves than an 8 coupled chassis.

 

(###### to create on paint, probably a better prototype starting point than Lima Prairie option too!)

[Hroth]

An alternative to the 7200 class?

 

Prarie Mallet.jpg

 

Would spread the weight a little more and be a bit nicer on tight curves than an 8 coupled chassis.

 

(###### to create on paint, probably a better prototype starting point than Lima Prairie option too!)

It'd probably need the next size up in boilers, that one would run out of puff!

[Satan's Goldfish]

Can I ask how the drive units would be coupled to create the articulated chassis. 

 

Very impressive idea though

'Mallet' style, really should have lower pressure cylinders at the front. My paint skills weren't up to making the front wheel set look more like a separate part to the boiler, sorry.

[Niels]

I tried shortening the boiler on your photo hack by moving the driving wheels together and bringing the bogie back, then I had to move the outside cylinder drive to the middle drivers to not have excess angulation, and now, where's the middle cylinder, it will have to be divided drive like a de Glehn, and the cylinder forward of the smoke box, perhaps the smokebox could be longer and oh, the connecting rods are really too long, perhaps the cylinders need to move back like a de Glehn, the boiler needs to pitch higher to make room for the cylinder and oh good grief, its not easy this imaginary locomotive lark is it. I give up!

 

11000.jpg

 

A three cylinder locomotive can have shorter connecting rods and by driving first axle cylinders can be closer together.

 

https://imgur.com/a/MeLZT

Edited December 27, 2017 by Niels

[LNWR18901910]

Suppose the LSWR experimented with the 2-6-0 arrangement and made an experimental mogul?

[DavidB-AU]

Suppose the LSWR experimented with the 2-6-0 arrangement and made an experimental mogul?

I cheated and made it inside cylinder.

 

 

Cheers

David

Edited January 3, 2018 by DavidB-AU

[Compound2632]

The logical conclusion of this sort of long boiler approach is surely the classic French 2-4-2 - outside cylinders (and valve gear).

[The Johnster]

I like the Beattie mogul, but reckon it would have needed superheating to stop the steam losing pressure and heat by the time it got to the cylinders; the dome is a long way away from them, and this is mid Victorian!

[rockershovel]

I like the Beattie mogul, but reckon it would have needed superheating to stop the steam losing pressure and heat by the time it got to the cylinders; the dome is a long way away from them, and this is mid Victorian!

... hence, presumably, the French loco having the dome mounted well forward ?

[LNWR18901910]

I cheated and made it inside cylinder.

 

LSWR260.jpg

 

Cheers

David

Nice attempt. What if it was later rebuilt with outer cylinders and a cab like the GWR 4300 Class 2-6-0?

Edited January 4, 2018 by LNWR18901910

[DCB]

The logical conclusion of this sort of long boiler approach is surely the classic French 2-4-2 - outside cylinders (and valve gear).

No wonder the French had such low speed limits, I reckon it would wriggle itself off the track at anything over 100 (Kph)

[DavidB-AU]

Nice attempt. What if it was later rebuilt with outer cylinders and a cab like the GWR 4300 Class 2-6-0?

I only cheated because I couldn't be bothered redrawing the main rod to the middle driver.

 

Cheers

David

[Compound2632]

No wonder the French had such low speed limits, I reckon it would wriggle itself off the track at anything over 100 (Kph)

 

I believe that under Napoleon III a blanket speed limit of 120 km/h (75 mph) was introduced which remained in force for upwards of a century, with the result that every express engine from these belle epoque 2-4-2s through to the Chapelon pacifics were designed to cruise at that speed up hill and down dale with heavy loads for hours on end - most of the major cities except Paris being on the fringes of France. But I may be overstating the case.

 

In his 1887 report to the New Zealand Government, Charles Rous-Marten gave his opinion that 75 mph was the practical maximum speed, though his later observations disproved this - by quite how much in many cases we will never really know. The most reliable of his high-speed reports would seem to be that of 92 mph sustained over two miles on the descent from Blea Moor, by the Smith-Johnson compound No. 2632.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Compound2632

[The Johnster]

McConnell, for the LNWR, made a (rather amusing) statement at the Gauge Commission Inquiry in the 1840s, that his company could easily run trains at 100mph all day if they wanted to, provided there was enough distance in front of them to stop.  Any account of such an attempt would have depended on the availability of evidence of any survivor capable of coherent speech...  But he also stated (a little more rationally, given the quality of materials and lack of good brakes or suspension he was actually working with) that he believed that normal services did not require more than 40mph.

 

By the 1850s some GW trains were running timetabled services at over 70mph, hauled by the Iron Duke/Rover singles, the fastest in the world by a handsome margin at the time when 50 was what most lines were doing, including the GW away from the Bristol trains, matched by the Bristol-Exeter run.  70 is still a respectable speed for secondary or branch lines, and was what the bulk of main line trains were averaging in the 1950s.

[Compound2632]

McConnell, for the LNWR, made a (rather amusing) statement at the Gauge Commission Inquiry in the 1840s, that his company could easily run trains at 100mph all day if they wanted to, provided there was enough distance in front of them to stop.  Any account of such an attempt would have depended on the availability of evidence of any survivor capable of coherent speech...  But he also stated (a little more rationally, given the quality of materials and lack of good brakes or suspension he was actually working with) that he believed that normal services did not require more than 40mph.

 

By the 1850s some GW trains were running timetabled services at over 70mph, hauled by the Iron Duke/Rover singles, the fastest in the world by a handsome margin at the time when 50 was what most lines were doing, including the GW away from the Bristol trains, matched by the Bristol-Exeter run.  70 is still a respectable speed for secondary or branch lines, and was what the bulk of main line trains were averaging in the 1950s.

 

I can believe in an occasional 70 mph maximum on the broad gauge - but what were the average speeds at this period? There was a falling-off in speed as the Great Western's economic situation worsened in the 1860s and 70s, or so I have been lead to believe. 

 

On the London & North Western, the standard average speed was around 40 mph for long-distance expresses under Moon's economical rule. This rose to around 55 mph by the early 20th century; averaging 70 mph in the 50s? I think not: that's the timetabled average speed of the Cheltenham Flyer in its glory days.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Compound2632

[Regularity]

In the 80s when I was a student in Preston and my then girlfriend was at Reading, the intercity train via Birmingham (changeover from an 86 to a 47) took 4 hours to cover 200 miles, or an average of 50 mph. Not much of an improvement from 100 years before!

I then discovered that for a small additional fee, I could go via London. Took the same overall time, but running non-stop from Preston to Euston was much more fun, especially as we frequently arrived early and had to wait for a platform to become clear. Timetabled for about 2.5 hours for the 209 miles: about 80mph average. That was progress!

[The Johnster]

I can believe in an occasional 70 mph maximum on the broad gauge - but what were the average speeds at this period? There was a falling-off in speed as the Great Western's economic situation worsened in the 1860s and 70s, or so I have been lead to believe. 

 

On the London & North Western, the standard average speed was around 40 mph for long-distance expresses under Moon's economical rule. This rose to around 55 mph by the early 20th century; averaging 70 mph in the 50s? I think not: that's the timetabled average speed of the Cheltenham Flyer in its glory days.

 

The Cheltenham Flyer managed an average 70mph between Cheltenham and Paddington, the first part of the run with a small tank engine to Gloucester and the climb to Sapperton on the way to Swindon included,  The GW's claim of it being the 'fastest train in the world', meaning the fastest regular timetabled service, was based on the non-stop Swindon-Paddington section of the run and involved an average speed of well over 80mph, requiring normal running over long stretches either side of the 40mph Reading PROS in the high 90s and sometimes more.  This was rather untypical of GW pre-war running, and a lightly loaded train with a big engine at a quiet time of day when a path can be easily found for it is not a particularly great achievement, though it generates very good publicity!

 

Average speeds were generally fairly low in the UK for some time; the aftermath of the 'Great Race To The North' in the 1880s resulted in an agreement on minimum timings to Glasgow and Edinburgh from the London termini that lasted until the1920s, and one must remember that, although the general trend was for more powerful locomotives everywhere over time, it was also for heavier trains which cancelled out the advances in raw power.

 

I agree that the GW lost some of it's leadership in this area in the 1860s and 70s; running west of Exeter, on the South Wales line, or the OW&W had never been all that fast anyway, and was not to really improve until the new Birmingham Direct line and the cutoffs were brought into use in Churchward's time, the GW's second golden age.

 

But it was not until the introduction of the class 81-6 electrics, and the Deltics on the ECML. that regular 100mph running became possible as a daily normal occurrence, in the early 60s.  Another 15 years were to elapse before the HSTs took that up by 20% and heralded the sort of running we are used to these days.  For this to be achieved in only 3 decades from a post war overall 70mph speed limit, in fact allowing 100mph running on the ECML as early as 1953, is a remarkable achievement against a backdrop of economic austerity in the early years, falling revenue, and political interference