RMweb Premium melmerby Posted November 25, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 25, 2019 (edited) Hi all I use code 75 track and I have a place where I need a LH curved point, I have yhe code 75 one but the inside radius is far too sharp, being 30" (or less!) The code 83 one looks more like the radii I want, it appears to be about 60" & 42". Would it be diffficult to mix them,, is the 8 thou difference easily overcome? Edited November 25, 2019 by melmerby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian J. Posted November 25, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 25, 2019 (edited) The peco code 83 #7 curved point isn't 42 inches on the internal radii, it's more like 30 inches. The outer is approx 60. I have been looking into these dimensions as a result of planning for my fiddleyard and using Anyrail extensively to figure out the best point geometry to use. Edit: I've just put a line of curved #7 together in Anyrail and their outer curve works out at around 68 inches to cover a 90 degree turn, while the inner curve works out at about 30 inches for the same. Edited November 25, 2019 by Ian J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dungrange Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 I don't think the difference in height is a particular issue, although you would need to put some form of packing under the Code 75 track, but we're only talking about the thickness of a sheet of paper or maybe two. Perhaps more important to highlight is that the sleeper spacing is different, with the sleepers on the Code 83 track closer together than the equivalent Code 75 / Code 100 product. The photograph below shows a right hand Code 83 #7 beside a right hand Code 100 Curved Point as well as a left hand Code 100 Curved Point sitting on top of a left hand Code 83 #7, just to show the difference in the geometry. I'm planning to use both types in my fiddle yard. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted November 25, 2019 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted November 25, 2019 Some information I saw suggested the two radii were 1524mm & 1062mm, which equates to about 60" & 42" which clearly they aren't. I could do with something with somewhat more than 36" for the inside radius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
autocoach Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 I am using both curved turnouts on my new a-building Port Costa California layout as the Shinohara sharper radius curved turnouts are no longer easily available and was not too reliable and I need sharper curves in one or two locations. Will just have to bury the code 75 turnout deeply in ballast over the ties (sleeper timbers in England) so not obviously apparent that it is not US prototype (not UK prototype either from what I understand). New Walthers Code 83 replacement for Shinohara will be coming eventually. I doubt PECO will invest in a sharper radius US prototype curved turnout. But then I was surprised they did a US double slip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 Why not use Tillig curved turnouts ? yes they are European looking but no worse than Peco code 75/83 for UK layouts. I find that my operating team could not care less how they look but how they work because most of the time they are not looking at the track but the trains and the shunting required. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 6 hours ago, autocoach said: I am using both curved turnouts on my new a-building Port Costa California layout as the Shinohara sharper radius curved turnouts are no longer easily available and was not too reliable and I need sharper curves in one or two locations. Will just have to bury the code 75 turnout deeply in ballast over the ties (sleeper timbers in England) so not obviously apparent that it is not US prototype (not UK prototype either from what I understand). New Walthers Code 83 replacement for Shinohara will be coming eventually. I doubt PECO will invest in a sharper radius US prototype curved turnout. But then I was surprised they did a US double slip. https://youtu.be/DRfwGnOqaew and they are US Prototype. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegheny1600 Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 You should be able to mix and match Peco code 75 & 83 quite happily with regard to rail height and whether or not you care about the visual sleeper differences - I have done it myself and so did Calder Northern with their large US H0 layout (1 single short crossing, subsequently replaced, I think). HOWEVER - you must only use RP-25 wheelsets through the code 83 trackwork otherwise you will get 'bumps' as wheels that are not RP-25 compatible will not fit. Older UK wheelsets and/or European NEM wheelsets are unsuitable as the gap through the 'Vee' is per American practice and built up to allow the flange of the RP-25 wheelset to run along it. I have ground this built up material out with a cutting disk but it is quite risky! John E. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted November 26, 2019 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted November 26, 2019 8 hours ago, Sol said: Why not use Tillig curved turnouts ? They don't (AFAIK) do large radius curved points, worse than Peco. e.g. 85374 is only 934mm + 543mm = 36" + 21" Maybe Shinohara? They do a code 70 #8 that can be curved. I wonder what that would be like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 Keith , you are correct re Tillig . my mistake. Shinohara has basically vanished & Walthers hopes to get it going again. They do have their own curved turnout 24 & 28" radius so but Tillig can also be curved a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted November 26, 2019 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted November 26, 2019 1 hour ago, Sol said: Keith , you are correct re Tillig . my mistake. Shinohara has basically vanished & Walthers hopes to get it going again. They do have their own curved turnout 24 & 28" radius so but Tillig can also be curved a bit. I've actually got some Farish turnouts and they can be bent but it's code 100. Looks like I'll have to try using a Peco large radius LH point and hope I can massage the track to fit the straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butler Henderson Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 Tillig Code 83 is a different rail shape to other makes of Code 83. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 On 25/11/2019 at 23:57, Allegheny1600 said: You should be able to mix and match Peco code 75 & 83 quite happily with regard to rail height and whether or not you care about the visual sleeper differences - I have done it myself and so did Calder Northern with their large US H0 layout (1 single short crossing, subsequently replaced, I think). HOWEVER - you must only use RP-25 wheelsets through the code 83 trackwork otherwise you will get 'bumps' as wheels that are not RP-25 compatible will not fit. Older UK wheelsets and/or European NEM wheelsets are unsuitable as the gap through the 'Vee' is per American practice and built up to allow the flange of the RP-25 wheelset to run along it. I have ground this built up material out with a cutting disk but it is quite risky! John E. RP25 is a shape not a wheel width. RP 25 wheel shapes exist in all the various smaller scales. If PECO code 83 complies with the NMRA HO standard for track, which I suspect it does, then you need to use all NMRA code 110 width wheel sets. This allows them to cross the 0.050" frog flangeway width without dropping. Any "build-up" in the bottom of the flange way is unnecessary, unless you are mistakenly using code 88 width wheel sets. Andy (formerly of the NMRA standards dept) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian J. Posted November 27, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 27, 2019 31 minutes ago, Andy Reichert said: RP25 is a shape not a wheel width. RP 25 wheel shapes exist in all the various smaller scales. If PECO code 83 complies with the NMRA HO standard for track, which I suspect it does, then you need to use all NMRA code 110 width wheel sets. This allows them to cross the 0.050" frog flangeway width without dropping. Any "build-up" in the bottom of the flange way is unnecessary, unless you are mistakenly using code 88 width wheel sets. Andy (formerly of the NMRA standards dept) It's not the width, it's the depth of the flange on older UK wheels that can cause problems on the Code 83 crossing, if I understand the issue properly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegheny1600 Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 2 hours ago, Ian J. said: It's not the width, it's the depth of the flange on older UK wheels that can cause problems on the Code 83 crossing, if I understand the issue properly. Thanks, Ian! That is exactly what I was trying to say. I didn't mention the width of the wheel at all so I cannot understand why that was introduced into the conversation. Cheers, John E. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dungrange Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 I think that's the issue - you mentioned RP25, but didn't state the width of the wheel and therefore the flange depth either. RP25 is the contour profile and the flange depth is related to the wheel width. Reference to RP25 doesn't define a flange depth on it's own. If you look at https://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/standards/sandrp/pdf/RP-25 2009.07.pdf RP25.88 has a flange depth of 0.023", whereas RP25.110 has a flange depth of 0.025". That said, I'd have thought that the issue with flanges hitting the infill piece in the common crossing would have been if the wheels had a flange depth greater than the RP25.110 standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 1 hour ago, Dungrange said: I think that's the issue - you mentioned RP25, but didn't state the width of the wheel and therefore the flange depth either. RP25 is the contour profile and the flange depth is related to the wheel width. Reference to RP25 doesn't define a flange depth on it's own. If you look at https://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/standards/sandrp/pdf/RP-25 2009.07.pdf RP25.88 has a flange depth of 0.023", whereas RP25.110 has a flange depth of 0.025". That said, I'd have thought that the issue with flanges hitting the infill piece in the common crossing would have been if the wheels had a flange depth greater than the RP25.110 standard. Yes. Only minor point, RP 25 is only a Recommended Practice. So not doing it doesn't break the Standard. Code 110 width and flange depth are part of the the HO Standard, so you must use them for full compliance - aka trouble free running. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted November 27, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 27, 2019 Why not use a Code 75 point and alter the geometry by cutting out some of the sleeper web and "straightening" the point? Altered Peco track has been used effectively this way on "Grantham". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted November 28, 2019 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted November 28, 2019 (edited) 13 hours ago, newbryford said: Why not use a Code 75 point and alter the geometry by cutting out some of the sleeper web and "straightening" the point? Altered Peco track has been used effectively this way on "Grantham". I had considered that before I started looking elsewhere. It now looks like a likely way forward, I'm even wondering about using a large LH point and curving that. I've got a load of code 100 Insulfrogs I could practice on for fit. Edited November 28, 2019 by melmerby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegheny1600 Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 19 hours ago, Dungrange said: I think that's the issue - you mentioned RP25, but didn't state the width of the wheel and therefore the flange depth either. RP25 is the contour profile and the flange depth is related to the wheel width. Reference to RP25 doesn't define a flange depth on it's own. If you look at https://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/standards/sandrp/pdf/RP-25 2009.07.pdf RP25.88 has a flange depth of 0.023", whereas RP25.110 has a flange depth of 0.025". That said, I'd have thought that the issue with flanges hitting the infill piece in the common crossing would have been if the wheels had a flange depth greater than the RP25.110 standard. Thanks, David! Yes, I know all that - I didn't specify RP25-110 because the OP appears to be using British outline stock! Well - I've never heard of any British outline stock being (factory) fitted with RP25-88 wheels - if there were, there'd be howls of protest at them dropping into the flangeways of regular Peco code 75 and code 100 points! Cheers, John. PS Keith - if you look through my layout "Leberecht" build thread in the "German" section of the forum - you should be able to find where I have modified several Peco code 75 points thus. HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 My brand new Hornby Gresley suburbans were just delivered with code 100 width wheels. What the reliable published "Standard" is for those I can't imagine. Fortunately, I was intending to replace the wheels anyway. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick38 Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 I saw a selection of code 83 turnouts for the first time at a retailers recently, and not knowing they were North American types, I was immediately impressed by the very large radii turnouts, which look far more authentic than even the "large" radius ones available in code 75 or 100. I wonder if there is any chance that larger radius turnouts could be introduced in those codes for British main line layouts? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 2 hours ago, Mick38 said: I saw a selection of code 83 turnouts for the first time at a retailers recently, and not knowing they were North American types, I was immediately impressed by the very large radii turnouts, which look far more authentic than even the "large" radius ones available in code 75 or 100. I wonder if there is any chance that larger radius turnouts could be introduced in those codes for British main line layouts? They look lovely don't they? Definitely can't just use the code 83 ones on a UK layout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted December 19, 2022 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted December 19, 2022 As to my original quest for larger curved code 75 turnout. Having since built a copperclad double junction (designed using Templot), which surprising to me went extremely well, I'm going to make a curved crossover with the required dimensions, using Templot again. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian J. Posted December 19, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 19, 2022 Templot is good for things like that 🙂 As a side note to the topic's original intent, I'm finding I'm going to be mixing Code 75 into my fiddleyard's otherwise Code 83 track, due to an 'odd' happening that the Code 83 turnouts I was going to use for a crossover wouldn't line up properly, but by changing one of them to a Code 75, it actually works better. However, I have to boost the Code 75 turnout up a bit higher than the Code 83, as the tops of the rail heads don't match up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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