installing keysafes on stone walls

[The White Rabbit]

One problem that has been dropped in my lap is installing a keysafe for someone who needs one for medical reasons. (Leaving a key with a neighbour or third party is not an option). Now I've had a look online and found a couple which are police accredited and have the secured by design approval - but the problem is all the suppliers and commentators seem to think we all live in brick/aggregate block houses. The house in question is stone, with an irregular face. As the installation instructions/guidance says it should be fitted flush to a flat surface (understandably), then anyone with irregular surfaces has a problem. The only things I can think of involve drastic and expensive action. 

 

Any ideas from anyone who has had to deal with this either from a personal or professional point of view? Help would be much appreciated. 

[russ p]

Why not put a coded lock on a door instead 

[polybear]

After thinking about it I'd say it does need to be flush all round with the surface - any opportunity to get a crowbar behind the keysafe means it won't stay put long; then take it somewhere quiet, smash it open and you've got the key

Sounds like a careful job neatly chipping away the surface with a small, sharp cold chisel may be one option, to create a flat rectangular area for securing the safe to

[Mike Storey]

Isn't it possible to install it on the door itself?

 

If not, then you need to install a flat backing plate, a thick-ish piece of wood would do, on to the stone wall, before attaching the key safe. I have done this for a post box. Not as secure, I realise.

[phil_sutters]

Could you secure the base with tough Rawl-bolts, or something similar, then fill any gaps around the edges with an epoxy resin pressed well into the gaps, so that it would be difficult to get a jemmy behind it. Is someone going to use excessive force to get into the key-safe, if they could just break a window?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Had this done on a stone construction church building. Wasn't allowed to clobber the listed stonework myself of course, had to engage a qualified mason to dress out the plane location. The upside of course is that bolted onto a good construction stone it is as secure as it can be.

[davefromacrossthepond]

39 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

Isn't it possible to install it on the door itself?

 

If not, then you need to install a flat backing plate, a thick-ish piece of wood would do, on to the stone wall, before attaching the key safe. I have done this for a post box. Not as secure, I realise.

Something like this?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Dial-Metal-Lock-Box-Key-Safe-Vault-Door-Hanger-for-Realtor-Real-Estate/323881287355?hash=item4b68d43ebb:g:4GsAAOSwO5JdT3i7

[chris p bacon]

I've fixed them to the door frame when the walls have been irregular, most are actually quite small so shouldn't be a problem. 

 

If you have to fit to a stone wall I'd cut a mounting plate and fix that first then fit the key safe onto and through the mounting plate.  Not having them sit flat means they don't alway open easily.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

What's wrong with the key on a piece of string through the letterbox, simpler and cheaper!!

 

Mike.

[TheQ]

If the building isn't listed, I'd use an angle grinder with appropriate blade to grind a small flat area, for the safe to mount to. 

I wouldn't use a a code safe,  I was sat on the church wall in Cromer eating some chips and saw someone walk up to the door for some flats above shops.  I clearly saw the code being tapped in,  code locks are not secure if you can be seen typing.. 

[The White Rabbit]

Thanks for your comments and suggestions. I'll have a look at coded doors before I go any further with a key safe, I need to think about the level of security but it's a left field idea worth checking.

 

If it is a key safe, for security purposes, I've been advised not to use rawlplugs but put the screws straight into the wall itself. In terms of getting a reasonably flush surface, an angle-grinder and chisel are looking like the way forward. Potentially some epoxy resin into any small gaps when the safe's installed and working fine, as there shouldn't be any gaps between wall (or mounting plate) and safe which the ungodly can exploit with crowbar or other levers. Given the site, installing it on the door or frame is not a good idea and is probably not technically possible. 

 

The whole situation and any solution I go with is an exercise in compromise and probabilities. There are other security concerns and the bottom line is short of wholesale remodeling of the property, it'll never be as secure as I'd like - same as a lot of people I guess. None of us should have to live in a fortress, but it's prudent to take precautions. 

 

Thanks all. 

[SM42]

12 hours ago, TheQ said:

If the building isn't listed, I'd use an angle grinder with appropriate blade to grind a small flat area, for the safe to mount to. 

I wouldn't use a a code safe,  I was sat on the church wall in Cromer eating some chips and saw someone walk up to the door for some flats above shops.  I clearly saw the code being tapped in,  code locks are not secure if you can be seen typing.. 

 

Indeed after this evening's shopping with Mrs SM42 we now know the PIN number of the MP hoping for re-election around here due to some very insecure attitudes to the key pad. He's not alone in his slapdashery ! Keying in your PIN at arm's length with a flourish  is never a good idea

 

A good idea, if possible, is to locate the key safe out of sight from the street but convenient for those who have to use it. It does shout vulnerable person to any passing ne'er do wells.

 

Mum's was shielded from the street by some bushes in the garden and was not directly next to the door.

 

Andy

[The White Rabbit]

Location's something I've been thinking hard about - one concern I have is if a key-safe's hidden, those with evil intent could also be hidden while they work on it. It's also an area prone to gossip, so where ever it went, I doubt it would be a secret for long. 

 

Any security system is only as good as those using it and if they are casual, as like your MP and TheQ's person - we might as well have a key on a piece of string through the letterbox! 

[phil_sutters]

47 minutes ago, SM42 said:

 

Indeed after this evening's shopping with Mrs SM42 we now know the PIN number of the MP hoping for re-election around here due to some very insecure attitudes to the key pad. He's not alone in his slapdashery ! Keying in your PIN at arm's length with a flourish  is never a good idea

 

A good idea, if possible, is to locate the key safe out of sight from the street but convenient for those who have to use it. It does shout vulnerable person to any passing ne'er do wells.

 

Mum's was shielded from the street by some bushes in the garden and was not directly next to the door.

 

Andy

If it is too hidden away you may screen anyone trying to abuse it from potential witnesses.

[eastglosmog]

Could you form a 3 in thick by 6in wide concrete slab on the wall, rising  up to about 1ft 6in above ground level?  You could fix the keypad back plate to the concrete whilst the concrete is drying, to  save on the drilling work, which can be quite a job (had to fix one to my mothers house recently).  Operators will have to bend down a bit, though.

[chris p bacon]

I've fitted loads of these and never seen or heard of them being crow barred or attempts at removing them.  If anything they signify that someone has multiple visits during the day/evening.

The reality of those that break in is that they don't need a key to do so.

[polybear]

11 hours ago, The White Rabbit said:

If it is a key safe, for security purposes, I've been advised not to use rawlplugs but put the screws straight into the wall itself.

 

I think I'd consider using Rawlbolts - strong little in my book, unless anyone knows different.....

[Enterprisingwestern]

8 minutes ago, polybear said:

 

I think I'd consider using Rawlbolts - strong little in my book, unless anyone knows different.....

 

Especially these security type.

 

https://www.fastenright.com/products/security-fasteners/security-anchors

 

Mike.

[chris p bacon]

you'd get just one of those inside a key safe. 

 

Just 2 No10 (Metric 5) 2 1/2" screws with brown plugs drilled at just off 90 degrees would be enough to stop someone removing it, 3 would need a nuclear bomb to remove and 4 screws would be there until the end of time.

 

[6959]

Sometimes the best way to hide anything is for it to be too obvious. Think of magicians, illusionists, on stage.  A securely fastened key box could be normally on view but be hidden behind a hinged or lift off house number plate  or house name plate. There is also the two stage option whereby a push button key box has a key to another box which has the door key. All push button devices are vulnerable unless code is changed frequently the open sesame buttons become shiny. Also applies to touch screens of tablets and phones.

[doilum]

There are industrial grade expoxies available from specialist suppliers that should meet your needs. Not sure where to source them now but coal mines used a sausage of epoxy to secure roof bolts. It was in great demand for recreating rusty sills on Cortinas and minis.

The idea of a base plate is worth considering as you may have to replace the safe if the combination lock fails. This was the case at my mother's house with a unit fitted by the local authority.

[SM42]

19 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

If it is too hidden away you may screen anyone trying to abuse it from potential witnesses.

 

Granted

 

Whilst mum's  was still visible it wasn't obvious. Looking from the end of the drive you could see anyone hanging around but not the safe itself.  A wall mounted post box helped

 

From directly in front of the house you had to look hard to see it, but could clearly see the door and the area immediately around  the safe

 

Only from the side opposite the drive, where it would be more obvious from, was the safe hidden from the street

 

The general point is don't make its presence too obvious to those who should have no legitimate  interest in it.

 

Those who need to know can be informed of where it is.

 

Andy

Edited December 5, 2019 by SM42

[polybear]

A safe can also suggest an infirm occupant, which some may consider to be an easier target.