BR Class 504: 1st class & Ladies only compartments

[philsandy]

I'm currently converting a 2EPB to a 504.

There were 5 single compartments in the trailer car, of which 3  were 1st class and 2  Ladies Only, but I can not find out which were which. Does anyone know?

Edited December 20, 2019 by philsandy
typo

[stovepipe]

The undated diagram book for D443 (from Barrowmore MRG website) has 1 ladies compartment shown at the inner end, then 2 non-smoking seconds, then a 1st and finally a non-smoking 1st. I think the convention was to have the ladies compartment adjacent, so it would probably have been the inner two compartments originally.

[Clive Mortimore]

8 hours ago, stovepipe said:

The undated diagram book for D443 (from Barrowmore MRG website) has 1 ladies compartment shown at the inner end, then 2 non-smoking seconds, then a 1st and finally a non-smoking 1st. I think the convention was to have the ladies compartment adjacent, so it would probably have been the inner two compartments originally.

Cor Blimey, the EMU diagrams are some I lent the Barrowmore guys and I have never noticed the trailer car of the Bury sets as having first class and a ladies compartment.

[Clive Mortimore]

 

There you go.

[dhjgreen]

That explains the closer spacing of the roof vents on the trailer, a pair per compartment.  I have no memory of compartments in the  70s, were they removed?

I cannot post my picture showing the vents, no copyright info.

Edited December 20, 2019 by dhjgreen

[philsandy]

2 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

 

There you go.

 

Thanks Clive much appreciated. 

So only one Ladies Only, and two 1st class  compartments, and the other 2 single compartments 2nd class No Smoking.

[philsandy]

2 hours ago, dhjgreen said:

That explains the closer spacing of the roof vents on the trailer, a pair per compartment.  I have no memory of compartments in the  70s, were they removed?

I cannot post my picture showing the vents, no copyright info.

 

Yes David they were, I remember them up to about 1968/9. 

[dhjgreen]

Found a picture which shows the roof vent detail, a bit sharper, but oblique compared with the one I sent you Phil.

https://www.google.com/search?q=class+504+emu&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjHluqbsMTmAhUCexoKHcAPCEQQ2-cCegQIABAC&oq=class+504+emu&gs_l=mobile-gws-wiz-img.3..0.179168.181499..182883...0.0..0.426.1672.4-4......0....1.........0i30j0i5i30j0i24.bPu1Rz-geMI&ei=iNL8XceyG4L2acCfoKAE&client=tablet-android-samsung&prmd=isvn#imgrc=E1W1NyuYq-4nFM

Edited December 20, 2019 by dhjgreen

[keefer]

Not shown on the Diagram, but presumably the 1st. class compts had armrests, meaning 4-a-side seating whereas the 2nd. class are 6-a-side.

Notice also the compt. seat pitch is smaller than that in the open section (only 3/4" though)

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, keefer said:

only 3/4" though

 

... that being the partition thickness, so the door centre lines (or whatever datum you want to take) are at uniform spacing.

[muddys-blues]

On 20/12/2019 at 13:16, philsandy said:

 

Yes David they were, I remember them up to about 1968/9. 

 

WOW what era are you modelling Phil ? I use to travel on them in the 70's, 80's & 90's till withdrawal, and I only recall them just having the centre partition, basically splitting the cars in 2, and having a 2+3 seating arrangement in the compartments, which where all standard class, no 1st class.

 

Best regards

Craig

Edited December 22, 2019 by muddys-blues

[philsandy]

14 minutes ago, muddys-blues said:

 

WOW what era are you modelling Phil ? I use to travel on them in the 70's, 80's & 90's till withdrawal, and I only recall them just having the centre partition, basically splitting the cars in 2, and having a 2+3 seating arrangement in the compartments, which where are standard class, no 1st class.

 

Best regards

Craig

 

Craig, my layout is fictitious somewhere in Manchester circa 1960. I'm going to give the 504 yellow warning panels which came in around 1962, as that is how I remember them.

[muddys-blues]

38 minutes ago, philsandy said:

 

Craig, my layout is fictitious somewhere in Manchester circa 1960. I'm going to give the 504 yellow warning panels which came in around 1962, as that is how I remember them.

 

I take it you have seen "Holcombe Brook" on the circuit then ? is it still going ?

 

Best regards

Craig.

[philsandy]

On 22/12/2019 at 19:26, muddys-blues said:

 

I take it you have seen "Holcombe Brook" on the circuit then ? is it still going ?

 

Best regards

Craig.

 

Yes I have seen Holcombe Brook, it's about 4 or 5 years ago now, but I don't know if it's still going.

[philsandy]

Just as a matter of interest, I noted in the book "Manchester to Bury the 'Lecky' Line", that the motor car was always at the Bury end, and the trailer car at the Manchester end of the line. What would have been the reason for this?

There is also a diagram of both cars, stating the trailer car having 42" dia. wheels, and the motor car 40" wheels, why would they be different diameters? 

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, philsandy said:

Just as a matter of interest, I noted in the book "Manchester to Bury the 'Lecky' Line", that the motor car was always at the Bury end, and the trailer car at the Manchester end of the line. What would have been the reason for this?

There is also a diagram of both cars, stating the trailer car having 42" dia. wheels, and the motor car 40" wheels, why would they be different diameters? 

Could it be that the trailers were on 2nd hand bogies.. ex-LNER coach bogies.

didnt the NYMR acquire a bunch of these on their scrapping ?

[philsandy]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Could it be that the trailers were on 2nd hand bogies.. ex-LNER coach bogies.

didnt the NYMR acquire a bunch of these on their scrapping ?

 

No, the 504's were built by BR in 1959.

[adb968008]

9 hours ago, philsandy said:

 

No, the 504's were built by BR in 1959.

The 504 were, but were the trailers bogies ?

zoom in and look... did BR build some Gresley design bogies, surely they were recycled.

 

http://www.srpsmuseum.org.uk/10077.htm

 

https://www.railwaymagazine.co.uk/889/east-lancs-class-504-future-secured/

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by adb968008

[philsandy]

43 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

The 504 were, but were the trailers bogies ?

zoom in and look... did BR build some Gresley design bogies, surely they were recycled.

 

http://www.srpsmuseum.org.uk/10077.htm

 

https://www.railwaymagazine.co.uk/889/east-lancs-class-504-future-secured/

 

 

Ah yes, they do look the same, that probably explains it. Thanks.

[keefer]

but the 504s were not the only units to have Gresley-design bogies, BR would have produced design specs for all the Works making them (and for power/trailer types)

Also, just because they look similar doesn't mean they're the same as coach bogies. Springing/damping will be different, may be single or double bolster etc.

[adb968008]

56 minutes ago, keefer said:

but the 504s were not the only units to have Gresley-design bogies, BR would have produced design specs for all the Works making them (and for power/trailer types)

Also, just because they look similar doesn't mean they're the same as coach bogies. Springing/damping will be different, may be single or double bolster etc.

We are into semantics territory.

 

i’m quite sure Gresley himself did not labour 12 hours a day making the thousands of bogies accredited to his name... but 7029 Clun Castle is a castle... that BR built it isnt in dispute.. its a castle..Just because it has a double chimney doesnt make it a Riddles castle.. its Colletts.

 

This bogie is a gresley bogie.. if it has 1 spring instead of 2 doesnt meant BR designed it... its history is a Gresley bogie..

 

if you insistent on that level of semantics then the bogie is of L& Y origin as Gresley learnt his trade there..indeed we might even credit it to the Romans or Egyptians.

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by adb968008

[keefer]

Nothing to do with semantics. I don't dispute the design or look of the bogies, i was merely replying to your suggestion the the 504 trailers may have received 2nd-hand or 'recycled' coach bogies.

I thought this unlikely as BR were building more than one type of EMU that required Gresley bogies, so would be making them new.

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, keefer said:

Nothing to do with semantics. I don't dispute the design or look of the bogies, i was merely replying to your suggestion the the 504 trailers may have received 2nd-hand or 'recycled' coach bogies.

I thought this unlikely as BR were building more than one type of EMU that required Gresley bogies, so would be making them new.

Hi Keefer,

 

I have always thought that the Gresley bogies under the Mk1 slam door units were refurbished/recycled from LNER coaches that were being withdrawn at the time of the building of the EMUs. Your comment has made me think, were they new, were they refurbished (they had roller bearings not plain ones) or were they a mixture of good conditioned ones that had been refurbished and new ones, after all York and Doncaster carriage works were set up to make and repair the Gresley designed bogies? It would be interesting to find out.

 

The Eastleigh EMU version of the BR Mk2 bogie under the Southend units and North London trains , as well as the umpteen EPB types, were not the most comfortable. So BR must have looked for a cheap solution to get a better ride, hence the possible use of refurbished Gresleys or just saving time in not having to design a new bogie and set up jigs etc for the manufacture of them hence the possibility of new Gresleys.

 

My experience of years traveling on the GER suggests that they gave a better ride than the Eastleigh EMU bogie, you soon realised that a Southend unit was heading towards Colchester no matter how drunk you were when boarding the train home. From what I understand from those who put up with the AM4s they could be a bit on the lively side. Were the Bury sets like it? I have discussed this with people who traveled on the GER stock and the LMR units and the conclusion was the Illford fitters were use to setting up Gresley bogies to get the best out of them where their colleagues on the LMR may not have been as good.

[25901]

The 504 that was cut at the ELR was cut solely because of the Gresley bogies. I don’t know who got them but the unit was owned by Harry Needle at the time and not the 504 group.

[keefer]

Thanks for that Clive, 

It would certainly be interesting to get confirmation one way or t'other - must admit I've never heard mention of 2nd-hand bogies before, i just assumed they were built new. Unless it was BR keeping quiet about the not-so-new parts in their new EMUs.

Incidentally, the only mention of  designations for the bogies i could find in the diagram book was for cl.303/311 - the motor bogie was Gresley ED8, trailer bogie ET11.

Re: the ride of bogies, i suppose there are many variables which could make a difference between two otherwise identical bogies. The springing or damping being the main ones, then overall care of maintenance and even the trackwork on which the units ran. It certainly seems to be only the 304s that get mentioned for their bounciness!