A layout design competition

[martin_wynne]

See: http://quickpicbooks...gn_contest.html

 

Thanks to Ron Hunt for the link ( posted on the ExtraNarrowGaugeRailways group at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ExtraNarrowGaugeRailways/message/5665 ).

[Stubby47]

Martin,

 

This looks like a method of getting free track plans to create a new book - rather than paying contributors as I assume is normally the procedure.

 

The winning designs along with other entries will be featured in the first volume of the new MASTERING MODEL RAILROADING series volume on trackplans

 

This is also seems unusual... giving up all rights to your own design...

 

By submitting the design, you convey copyright to, and the drawings become the property of BHI Publications and may not be used or distributed (including online) without the written permission of BHI Publications or its assigns

Perhaps I'm being too cynical, but to me it seems the publishers getting alot for nothing - even if you get a plan published, you have to buy a copy of the book.

 

Any entrants who is not one of the top 3 chosen by the judges and whose work is published in a book may purchase up to 2 copies of any particular title their work is showcased in for $10 + shipping.

 

Stu

 

 

 

 

[Kenton]

Can anyone ever claim to have a pure original plan never thought of before and then copyright it?

Isn't the whole point of a track plan book to get people to copy it? (the plans in it that is, not the book as a whole)

 

I think that labels me as a cynic too.

[martin_wynne]

Martin, This looks like a method of getting free track plans to create a new book - rather than paying contributors as I assume is normally the procedure.

Hi Stu,

 

Well yes, if you design layouts for reward or financial gain you won't be going anywhere near this.

 

But most folks just enjoy layout designing as a pastime, and this is a bit of incentive to do that and perhaps see the results in print.

 

The terms of entry are there for all to see, there is nothing misleading about them. So you can accept them and join in for fun, or you can walk away.

 

Even if you do join in, it is only the publication right which you are assigning away -- you are not prevented from building the layout.

 

Nor from redrawing it in a different form or with changes -- there is no copyright on ideas.

 

Whatever, I'm simply passing on the link, for which thanks to Ron Hunt.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[shortliner]

Well, looking at the prize money, the length of time available, and the requirements for the smallest (storage) category, I'll be inerested to see how many entries they get :-

"1- Storage

This category is for layouts that can be stored and includes modular ones but it must be an entire layout so for instance N-Trak or Free-MO type modules are not eligible but a shelf switching layout is.

The Layout must include a way to be stored in no more than 40 cubic feet with the largest dimension in any direction being 5 feet. Minimum size is 2'x4'. There must be storage for all equipment and structures and everything necessary to run a layout within the dimensional space,

 

If this is supposed to include controller/transformer,cables, and rolling stock they are asking a lot. And why 4' x2' minimum I wonder? They obviously havent read Carl Arendts site where a Micro is defined as 4 sq.feet (4'x1') and presumably precludes a 5'x1'x1'layout

 

One also has to ask why an F-Unit diesel -there are small b-b locos available like the 44/45/70 tonners which are more suitable for a small layout.

 

Me Cynic too! (Sorry if you were reading this in bits - fat fingers hit wrong key!

[DavidB-AU]

By submitting the design, you convey copyright to, and the drawings become the property of BHI Publications and may not be used or distributed (including online) without the written permission of BHI Publications or its assigns

I'll happily give my designs to anybody for private or not-for-profit use, or at most release them under a Creative Commons licence. No way would I ever transfer copyright for somebody else to make money off them. This is why I will not be entering.

 

Cheers

David

[Glorious NSE]

Well, looking at the prize money, the length of time available, and the requirements for the smallest (storage) category, I'll be inerested to see how many entries they get :-

 

"1- Storage

This category is for layouts that can be stored and includes modular ones but it must be an entire layout so for instance N-Trak or Free-MO type modules are not eligible but a shelf switching layout is.

The Layout must include a way to be stored in no more than 40 cubic feet with the largest dimension in any direction being 5 feet. Minimum size is 2'x4'. There must be storage for all equipment and structures and everything necessary to run a layout within the dimensional space,

If this is supposed to include controller/transformer,cables, and rolling stock they are asking a lot. And why 4' x2' minimum I wonder? They obviously havent read Carl Arendts site where a Micro is defined as 4 sq.feet (4'x1') and presumably precludes a 5'x1'x1'layout

 

One also has to ask why an F-Unit diesel -there are small b-b locos available like the 44/45/70 tonners which are more suitable for a small layout.

 

Me Cynic too! (Sorry if you were reading this in bits - fat fingers hit wrong key!

 

Sorting out your quotes there - the insistence that it can be be modular but not those types of modular is interesting as well, I would envisage it being quite easy to design something usable within those specs and still compatible with Freemo...

 

My reading of the F-unit requirement is that it should have curves that will take an F unit, not that the layout must be built with that loco in mind (else anything in that bottom category will need a turntable or wye designed in, making it quite a challenge!!)

[shortliner]

 

My reading of the F-unit requirement is that it should have curves that will take an F unit, not that the layout must be built with that loco in mind (else anything in that bottom category will need a turntable or wye designed in, making it quite a challenge!!)

 

I follow you train (sic) of thought - that wasn't how I read it, but it does seem to make sense - I must also agree with David - if my designs and "artwork" are to be used to make somebody some money - then I expect to be paid (as indeed, I have) , but otherwise they are entirely free to anyone who finds them interesting enough to actually build them

[martin_wynne]

if my designs and "artwork" are to be used to make somebody some money - then I expect to be paid

Hi Shortliner,

 

But in this case you do get paid. The payment for submitting your entry and assigning copyright is a chance to win a prize. The prizes may be derisory and the odds of winning one unknown, but that doesn't change the principle that there is indeed a payment for your work. It's the prize money divided by the odds.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[shortliner]

Ahh, Yes Martin - but a total of US$110 (about GB£70) cash and some vouchers for books that none of the winners may want, or ever spend due to import charges (at least in this country) strikes me as a VERY cheap way of trying to pick up a bookful of designs - without EVER paying any of the other entrants, and indeed charging them for the priviledge of obtaining the book which features their design. To me, that is just cheeky! You have also to give them the rights to repeatedly use your trackplan in any other books they may decide to produce at some point in the future!

[martin_wynne]

without EVER paying any of the other entrants

Hi Jack,

 

EVERYONE does get paid. The payment is a CHANCE to win, i.e. a raffle ticket. The payment may be derisory, but you can't say that there isn't any.

 

Ownership of all entries is a standard term in commercial competitions, for obvious practical reasons. I don't think you can complain about that. It's the dismal nature of the prizes which makes this competition so unappealing.

 

Clearly this is a fishing expedition for cheap book material. But I think the replies above have missed the point -- not everyone values their hobby in strict financial terms. For many this would simply be a bit of fun. The reward comes from the enjoyment of creating the plan, and the sense of achievement if they should win.

 

Those who value their hobby time in money terms would not be expected to enter.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[shortliner]

Martin said

 

 

Those who value their hobby time in money terms would not be expected to enter.

 

I thoroughly agree, and I never have looked at it in those terms. I have been paid for comissioned artwork, but my trackplans for MTI, and the entries on Carls site, and in his 3 books, , have all been made for no payment - although he has sent me a copy of each out of the goodness of his heart. It was the "fishing" aspect with the derisory "prizes" acting as bait that I object to, especially when you realise the amount of work that the "competition rules" demand of each entrant, for the "chance" of payment. They are basically asking for "publication ready" artwork requiring no further processing to be sent to them, in order to feed said artwork into a book that can be produced as cheaply as possible, probably with text written by a staff writer, to give them maximum profit. As I said before "Very cheeky!"

[DavidB-AU]

Jack, perhaps time for MTI to run a competition?

 

Cheers

David

[shortliner]

Everybody, I'm cross-posting this from the Yahoo Small Layout Design group that I moderate - it goes a long way to explaing what and why, and will hopefully set peoples minds at rest. Andy/Mods - if you aren't happy about the crossposting (I couldn't link as the Yahoo group requires membership to read it) please pull it. I'd also like to apologise for my mis-understanding of the motives behind the competition

Best

Jack

 

 

Wow,

 

I just got a couple of e mails from people and had never visited the group

before.

 

First off I want to thank Ron for at least posting this note to this group

as I had no clue it existed until tonight.

 

I suppose there are a few questions but I would have preferred to have them

brought to me rather than someone just assuming the worst.

 

Hopefully the moderators will not consider this a commercial post as I am

just responding to incorrect perceptions regarding a layout design contest

we are having with the info here:

http://quickpicbooks...gn_contest.html

 

 

PLEASE, ANYONE wanting to comment on this thread, I would appreciate it to

hear from you off list. It is not part of what the group is about and I

apologize to the rest who have had to wade through this.

bhipubs@charter.net

 

Also for those who have issues or suggestions on how to make it happen

easier please share those constructive ideas with me off list too. Telling

me something is broken without offering a solution is not going to help.

 

 

 

FYI I just made a change to the deadline due to other projects and made the

update I mention in the reply to the first of Archie's notes and to the

copyright versus NMRA AP entry also as mentioned below...

 

 

 

 

So to answer the criticisms in order:

 

 

Archie:

You wrote first:

>A neat way to obtain material for a few layout books.

>They offer a discounted price for copies of the publications containing

your

>material but don't actually say that you'll be credited.

 

My reply:

Absolutely it is a way to obtain material for layout books. I could draw

them all myself (been modeling since 1975 and did professional layout

designs for about 10 years so no biggie for me to do them) or have the guys

already involved in our various books and projects (roughly 40 or so) draw

them but I figure there are a lot of talented people out there that may have

a better or different way to be just the solution someone wants. One thing I

am hoping to see in the winners the judges give me, and no I am NOT one of

the judges, are some unique solutions to the problems many of us face with

space versus prototypical appearance. And to top it off, I intentionally

looked the NMRA Civil Engineer layout drawing requirements for their AP to

hit many of those so it could be used for that purpose. I will amend the

copyright info to indicate that. (***note*** done)

 

I overlooked putting credit info in but would credit the designer usually on

the page of the drawing unless a single person submitted a number of plans

in different sizes. My apologies and thanks for noting that so I can correct

it. I am not perfect so appreciate all help in fixing things I overlooked.

I amended the contest rules to show that before posting this note.

 

Archie you continued:

>I would expect them to raise the ante and pay for all published layouts

plus

>guaranteeing all credits plus the authors should retain copyright unless

>published.

 

My reply:

While I would love to offer everyone who draws a plan a free copy of the

book(s) I am planning the books in the series to cover 50 pages each. That

is a potential of 100 individual draftspeople. While it is a great idea, it

is economically not feasible nor is paying everyone. As far as the authors

retaining copyright, I put that in for one simple reason. If you have been

around the hobby any length of time to see the old Kalmbach Books from the

60's and 70's you will notice even though many are still reasonable to

publish, they are not in print. The reason that I have heard even back when

I was behind the counter in hobby shops and asking about them, is they got a

onetime use and cannot reprint them because many of the original authors are

dead now and it isn't worth the trouble to get copyright permission yet

again and face it we are an aging hobby. In the past month I have read of a

number of friends and people I respect passing. I know if I did work then I

would want it to go on even if I was hit by a truck tomorrow and figure most

that I would involve in my projects are of the same mind.

 

On the other hand, if a small number of authors go in on a book then

absolutely we pay. Here is the FAQ for prospective authors and

photographers:

http://bhipubs.homes...idelines_v1.htm

For the contest I modified the copyright aspect of #7 because of too many

potential individuals/estates involved.

 

Royalties are a buck a book, sorry I wish I could pay more but it isn't

possible without someone who hits Powerball wanting to invest in a tax

break. So putting it that way to you Archie, would you be offended if

someone offered you say 2-3 cents per copy sold of a book that contained 1

or 2 of your drawings versus giving it away and having someone come up to

you later on and thank you for your cool idea IF your idea was not the ones

the judges choose.

 

 

 

 

David Bromage wrote:

> I had the same thought. I'll share my designs with anybody for

>personal or not-for-profit use but there is no way I will transfer

>copyright so somebody else can make money. This is why I won't be

>entering.

 

My reply:

While I would HOPE the layout books would make a profit, I am not expecting

them to. With less than 10% of the railroad modelers likely even online in

the Yahoo groups, I am trying to figure ways to get all the cool ideas out

to those who could care less about a modem etc. and with 120+ railroad and 3

aviation titles in print, I am hoping to give back to the modelers that we

all once were when we were just getting started and facing information

overload which is what the new series is all about. Don't get me wrong,

there are some titles that definitely will be good for the authors and for

us...otherwise I would go back to the real world and work there but there

are a number of books planned and in development that I know will be slow

sellers. Unlike most other publishers, that has not stopped us all the time

which is why we have books out on the Silverton Northern and Sumpter Valley,

neither of which have truly big followings.

 

 

 

 

Max on Cape Cod wrote:

>Right on, but worse, you lose all rights to your own railroad design.

 

My reply:

Maybe I am missing something in trying to do something good. Help me to

understand. The plan books and many others will carry the wording to the

effect that non commercial use is encouraged. And copyright law is a whole

different animal than patent law so you can make anything you ever read

about unless it is a patented design. So if one can build it and play with

it other than lines on a sheet of paper, unless one is doing layout design

as a profession, what truly has been lost?

 

 

 

 

Genetk44ca wrote:

> Seems like a total rip-off to me.

 

How so? I am ponying up $110 bucks cash money out of my own pocket, plus

$225 worth of the books we already publish, plus the royalties to THOSE

authors whose books get chosen as part of the prizes, plus 6 copies of books

that the top three designs appear in. Roughly a $450 investment on my part

right out of the blocks with no guarantee that anything will be usable in a

book. If you want to help out with those expenses I am always open to money

:-).

 

If someone is drawing layouts for profit and cannot draw a layout that is

competitive in less than 4 hours time then they need to look at a different

profession...(I did layout design for years so am pretty close in that time

estimate for 3 of these size drawing)...and if you are doing it for fun, you

have a chance to get my money.

 

I do not have advertisers, unlike the magazines when they run their

contests, and so all prizes are a direct result of other modelers buying

books before I decided to do this and set aside the $ for it.

 

So am I understanding your position right Gene, that essentially you appear

to be complaining that I am not giving more out for free for what I would

imagine many in this group do for grins and giggles and give away for free

and I have done the same thing myself? Help me understand.

 

If you are thinking this is a high dollar revenue stream I am ALWAYS open to

investors and then you get to understand firsthand the old joke in the model

manufacturing business...the way to make a small fortune in trains is to

start with a much larger one. Having been around the business since 1985, I

can think of less than a dozen people who maybe made a better living with a

train business than they could have in a "real" job but the having fun

aspect makes up for it for most of us and none of us that I know of, have

our own private Learjet.

 

 

 

 

Archie Wrote:

> Obviously they couldn't stop you building your own layout if it's

published as

>it is then in the open but what would happen if you built the layout before

it

>was published and took it to an exhibition. You'd be in breach of your

sold,

>sorry there was no payment, copyright. I'm not sure that that's legal

because

>they've paid nothing for it not even the traditional 1s.

 

 

My reply:

 

Well Archie I hope you have stuck with me on this because you essentially

hit the nail on the head for a lot of this. The copyright transfer is legal

because it is in hopes of winning a contest so there is your value received.

Your assumption that copyright prevents building though is incorrect. Refer

to my comment above to MAX ON CAPE COD regarding copyright law. You could

not resell the exact drawing to someone else and could not print copies of

it to give out at an open house without our permission because it would

infringe upon potential revenues. Other than that you could do pretty much

what you chose to do including building and exhibiting it. Granted if I had

someone's drawing in a book and they wished to use it in an article or

elsewhere that it was not in direct competition for the book that it

appeared in then odds are almost 100% that I would not only allow it but I

would encourage it.

 

To top it off, in the series we have a section for project layouts. It is

not publicized because most project layouts are many months or longer in the

building and I hate to put it out there and then have someone have a life

change where it is delayed for years. Right now there are 5 in the process

of being built but room for as many as we get people wanting to do them. If

someone builds a layout from one of the books and wants to do a project

layout book on it, man I would be so happy I would be two people. Consider

it thus from a marketing point of view....here is layout XYZ built from John

Doe's plan. See it in plan book ###...get them both so you can follow

along...duh! The designer gets attaboys, the layout book hopefully gets a

few more sold, and the project layout validates the design. AND if the

layout designer decides he/she wants to jump in as a part time gig, they

have instant credibility. HOW cool is that! I am not seeing any negatives

there at all.

 

Truly I want everything I publish to be used and enjoyed. When I am at shows

and people show up with ratty, dog eared, paint and glue stained, shoved in

the back pocket, folded up, copies of our books and apologize I tell them to

rethink that. I do stuff to be used not to sit on a library shelf though if

you want to pick up a good copy and a workbench/field copy then by all means

do so with my encouragement <G>. Using it on the workbench I see as the

highest compliment possible.

 

 

 

Ron Hunt Wrote:

> It was just something I ran across and I thought maybe someone would want

to

>enter to see if they could win a buck or two, I never dreamed what a blown

up

>federal mess the whole idea would be.

 

>SORRY I POSTED IT - It won't happen again.

 

 

My reply:

Actually I am glad you did Ron because it certainly helped me to understand

some things and Archie and some other posters did help me correct a couple

of oopses. All in all I consider it a good posting because as was said, it

did make people think. But I am sorry you took heat that should have come my

way.

 

 

All of our books are the direct beneficiaries of good ideas offered to us by

our readers over the past 10 years because I do not believe in letting a

good idea go to waste and implement them as soon as I can. Mistakes and

problems I correct as soon as I can so my apologies for the heat you took.

 

***************

 

Now on to the background for the books for those who are interested. I

attend a train convention or two every year and get to see a lot of great

ideas and even some clinics. On the way home from the Colorado Springs NG

convention last September I had the opportunity to yak on the phone to

friends...for those prior service military, crossing Kansas with a cell

phone is the same thing as your buddy halfway around the world drunk calling

you at 0200 because he could. For those of you non prior military service

suffice it to say that eastern Colorado and western Kansas until you get

close to KC is pretty boring. Stop for gas and lunch and otherwise put the

cruise control on and talk.

 

So there I was, not even to the CO/KS line and talking to a friend about

Joel Bragdon's geodesic foam scenery. Now this friend has been a modeler

since the 1960's and had never heard of Joel's stuff. (

http://www.bragdonent.com/ ) I like to stop by and see what new molds and

toys Joel has so I was telling him about it and he was clueless and I was

speechless, a rarity. He got online right then and ordered the test size kit

to try it out. Then I told him about how I had seen some really cool LED

things a guy from Australia had brought. So then I started thinking there

are a lot of great modelers and products out there that the magazines cannot

do justice to in 2-4 pages that people would use if they had an in depth

article on how to use it. We are now working on the books with modelers AND

manufacturers to get as many of the good ideas out that need a bit more than

a page or two. One nice thing about no advertisers is if something is less

than stellar, we can either not show it or show how to work around the

shortcomings to get the results you want. No fluff reviews are going to be

in these, only real modelers working with the stuff they found to work best

for them and the manufacturers telling you the tricks they tell people in

front of them at shows.

 

The first book in the series should be shipping in about 7-10 days and is on

using Surface Mount LEDs for scale lighting (yep that guy). The author,

Laurie McLean put these lights INSIDE the scale correct markers on a

Blackstone HOn3 DRGW Caboose. He shows how to do using Cal-Scale and Utah

Pacific HO markers too so that opens up things in all the larger scales too.

Also he has articles how to do a potbellied stove, kerosene lamp, using DCC

function only decoder to turn the lights on and off, and how to use them

even in the Grandt Line HO Scale plastic lampshades and other structure

lighting. Laurie McLean did a killer job and I am positive there are a lot

of people that are going to have more fun with their trains than they did

before all the way up to 1:20/Fn2 and down to Nn3/Z scale. I already have

visions on a Conductor in a pose that will allow a pipe or cigar so I can

add in a burning coal on the tip. Here was the prepublication front cover

and rough info on the book:

http://quickpicbooks.../MMR_SMLED.html

 

 

Yes absolutely the layout contest is intended to get a crop of drawings for

future books but I am up front and honest about it. Sorry for those that did

not understand what was going on there, no intent to be devious was

intended. I want the series to be by modelers showing others how to do

things just as if they were putting on a clinic at a meet or convention or

telling a buddy how ya solved that problem that had been bothering you.

There are a lot of great ideas out there going unheard because there has not

been a way to do them before now. Now here is the way to share them so it is

up to a person to decide whether they are interested in trying to truly help

others improve or...not. Even the newest modeler can have a solution that no

one has considered before.

 

 

I have always been of the mind that the more written on a given model train

subject the better it is for everyone. The author sees a higher demand from

a larger base of people. The manufacturer sees more demand and offers more

products which interests more people into the hobby who want to learn more,

which creates demand for more publications and everything snowballs onward

and everyone wins (except for the spouses who lose real estate for layouts

and work areas but gain knowing where their partner is at 2am on Saturday

morning (who are in their basement on hands and knees looking for the part

they dropped at 1 am). I challenge anyone to show me where the loss is in

that.

 

 

 

Best wishes and if anyone wishes to discuss this further or other subjects,

please pop me a note off list so I do not get the mods any more unhappy with

me and the list can get back to talking and thinking about trains.

 

 

Tim Mulina

BHI Publications

bhipubs@charter.net

 

http://www.quickpicbooks.com Prototype and Model Railroad books

http://www.bhipubs.com Bookmarks, Magnets, Aerospace books

 

[uNQUOTE]