After a recommendation for DCC System for programming

[Firecracker]

Right mates, as above I’m after your recommendations for a DCC system, specifically for programming chips/tweaking CV’s.  A few points to help:

 

1) I’m conversant with DCC, but I’m 10 years out of date with how DCC kit has developed.

2) Already running a Lenz LH90 handset on the set 90 (?) setup, like it as a controller, however the tiny LCD display is a pain in the joint fundament when programming.  Looking for something that’s got a clearer display and a more straightforward interface.

3) In the first instance, this is to be dedicated to a test bed/rolling road/programming setup, not driving the layout.

4) Budget - not bottomless, but will pay for good kit.  

5) Not adverse to something that requires a laptop/PC, but would prefer a stand alone system.  Me and computers have an understanding, I don’t poke around inside them and they don’t mess me about.

6) Must be able to talk to any chip and anything programmed by it must work with the existing Lenz system.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Owain

[Dava]

I started with a NCE Powercab but found I couldn't see what I was trying to program, very frustrating.

 

I have a SPROG 3 which uses the JMRI open source software. It requires a laptop or other preferred computing device. Costs about 65 pounds. It makes the programming visible, you can see the characteristics of each decoder and what you are doing to programme it. Essential for sound and complex chips such as ESU Loksound. https://www.sprog-dcc.co.uk/

 

I'd suggest having a look at the JMRI decoder pro interface first https://www.jmri.org/

Alternatives exist as others will advise. 

 

It doesn't include all decoders, as I found the Dapol Imperium ones are not recognized but via the useful advice on this forum I found out they were Lais manufactured.   Includes simple throttle app so can be used for layout operation, see the tools menu.

 

Dava 

[newbryford]

I also use a Lenz  - LH100/LZV100 for my main layout - which is portable, but find it laborious when I want to dig it out to use for loco testing/programming.

There will be those along to extol the virtues/cost of Sprog/JMRI/DCC++ etc etc, but I acquired a NCE Powercab for a future project. This is currently serving as my go-to testbench/program/cleaning kit.

It now even goes to exhibitions with me for in-show test/clean/CV tweaking along with a short length of track, some rolling road and a Woodland Scenics Tidy-track wheel cleaner. The Powercab setup comprises no more than a small power supply, plug-in panel and handset - no need for PC/laptops. Quite easy to read and progam CVs on the program track - especially if all you're thinking about doing is tweaking CVs - admittedly a bit more faff when setting uo complex speed curves and remapping functions etc.

 

Although the Powercab does date from a few years hence and checking the higher function keys is a bit of a faff (just like the Lenz) , it is solid, reliable kit  (just like the Lenz)

 

I've had no issues with anything programmed with it and then running on the Lenz.

 

You'll be looking at £160-180 for a complete system depending upon where you purchase.

 

The other option may be a Digikeijs DR5000 - if you want to go d own the laptop route. Easy to hook up and use the Drive/programming track options on the accompanying software with the supplied USB cable.

And you can even connect your Lenz handset to it.

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

 

Edited December 29, 2019 by newbryford

[Kaput]

Using a SPROG and DecoderPro makes programming so simple I'm not sure I could ever go back to trying to program with my Progidy handset.

Remapping functions to take them off the non latching F2 is a simple case of ticking and unticking some checkboxes instead of pouring over a CV list trying to figure out what CV's to change to what value.

 

Only thing I really dislike about it is how long it takes to read a LokSound decoder since the software can't do it the way a LokProgrammer would and has to sit and read every CV individually.

[Andymsa]

For my ESU decoders I use the ESU decoder pro hardware and software. And for non ESU decoders I use JMRI. But in my opinion the ESU although only for use with ESU decoders it's graphic interface is the best you can get.

[Firecracker]

Right.  Thanks all, please keep them coming.  A couple of stupid questions if I may...

 

1) Kaput - Decoder pro is the software, right?  

 

2) I’m assuming SPROGS (which my initial poking of google had exhumed) will connect via USB?  Any restrictions or requirements for operating system of the laptop (having slept on it, I’m more accepting of a computer interface, provided it’s plug and play and it will run on a laptop) in question?

 

Anyway, thanks all, please keep them coming.

 

Owain

[Dava]

JMRI is the program/operating system you download ,  Decoder pro [and Panel Pro and Sound pro] are the other apps which you select to use it. Decoder pro runs on the SPROG. 

 

Check the JMRI homepage in my earlier carefully as it gives pretty full details. 

 

The SPROG connects to a laptop via a USB plug as a USB3 device. It has its own power supply and a power output to the programming track.

 

You choose the version of JMRI for your laptop OS. Mine works fine with Windows 10. You have to permit your firewall/antivirus to download the program. 

[Nigelcliffe]

44 minutes ago, Firecracker said:

Right.  Thanks all, please keep them coming.  A couple of stupid questions if I may...

 

1) Kaput - Decoder pro is the software, right?  

 

 

 

DecoderPro is a feature or subset of the JMRI software (or really, just the user interface presentation*).    JMRI is a big bit of software which does an awful lot of things (think of it as a model railway meccano set - bolts together in thousands of ways. ). 

JMRI is open source, free.   Its developed by people in their own time, for no pay.   On the whole, the developers are enthusiastic.   So, if you ask for something politely and seek help following the published methods (there is an email group where help is provided), and do your bit to help yourself, then assistance is usually forthcoming, and usually done quickly.   If you throw toys out of the pram, moan and stamp feet, then you'll not get things done.

 

JMRI works on hundreds of different DCC systems, if you have the appropriate interface hardware from computer to system.  Some interfaces are "free in the system hardware", some cost money.  Unfortunately, Lenz is one of the most expensive computer interfaces at over £100.  

JMRI supports thousands of DCC decoders, but some obscure stuff (in world terms, such as Dapol) will slip through, because of the reasons in the paragraph above. 

 

JMRI runs on just about any "full computer" - ie. Windows, MacOS, and Linux.    It won't run on most tablets (will run on some high-end Windows ones which run full Windows). 

Running on a Raspberry PI, at £35 for the computer, is a very cost-effective way of getting a stand-alone setup. 

Once running, there are optional interfaces to Apple and Android phones and tablets, to link to the computer.

 

Quote

2) I’m assuming SPROGS (which my initial poking of google had exhumed) will connect via USB?  Any restrictions or requirements for operating system of the laptop (having slept on it, I’m more accepting of a computer interface, provided it’s plug and play and it will run on a laptop) in question?

 

Sprog is a bit of hardware.  Its essentially a DCC system in a box, but needs a computer to provide its user interface, hence JMRI software.    It comes in several versions, but for a programming device for OO or N, get a Sprog-2  (you don't need the extra amps of the Sprog-3, nor the expense). 

Primary support is for Windows, but it does work on MacOS and Linux.  (Arguably its less hassle to get it running on Linux (via Raspberry PI) than anything else...).

 

 

 

(* some years ago, I designed the current DecoderPro user interface, with the roster list, links out to the programmers, etc..  The work was done because the previous user interface was becoming unwieldy as the software had grown.   Its grown a lot more since then.     ).

 

 

- Nigel

[RAF96]

Any device that relies upon software on a PC, etc is then also reliant upon decoder definitions being written into the software. This means that over time you will come across decoders that the software does not recognise, until someone (i.e. one of those JMRI stalwart volunteers, etc) writes it down and it gets incorporated.

 

Any direct reading device should be able to interrogate and program any decoder providing said decoder is manufactured to DCC standards of conformity. Some of the more basic devices are limited in what programming they can actually do, so check the specs when you get down to a short list of possibles.

Edited December 29, 2019 by RAF96
Missing word

[Firecracker]

Right, I think I’m getting it!  (As you may have guessed, I’m not the most IT-savvy tool in the drawer).  Thanks one and all, please keep it coming (and thanks for the idiot proof descriptions so far!)

 

Owain

Edited December 29, 2019 by Firecracker

[Andymsa]

Even if jmri can't see a specific manufacturer, you can still use the generic NMRA section at the top of the list to program. Also do remember decoder pro WILL only program ESU decoders, it won't do other makes so using decoder pro will tie you to ESU decoders, which is what I use but I still have JMRI for those ready installed non ESU decoders.

[Crosland]

1 hour ago, Firecracker said:

2) I’m assuming SPROGS (which my initial poking of google had exhumed) will connect via USB?  Any restrictions or requirements for operating system of the laptop (having slept on it, I’m more accepting of a computer interface, provided it’s plug and play and it will run on a laptop) in question?

 

 

 

The SPROG and JMRI will work on Windows, Linux and MacOS. Recent SPROGs simply plug in and work, once you select the correct COM port or tty device. No need for any special drivers.

 

1 hour ago, Dava said:

The SPROG connects to a laptop via a USB plug as a USB3 device. It has its own power supply and a power output to the programming track.

 

Sadly it's only USB2 (but can be connected to a USB3 port as USB3 wil fall back to older protocols), but that's more than sufficient.

 

33 minutes ago, RAF96 said:

Any device that relies upon software on a PC, etc is then also reliant upon decoder definitions being written into the software. This means that over time you will come across decoders that the software does not recognise, until someone (i.e. one of those JMRI stalwart volunteers, etc) writes it down and it gets incorporated.

 

Any direct reading device should be able to interrogate and program any decoder providing said decoder is manufactured to DCC standards of conformity. Some of the more basic devices are limited in what programming they can actually do, so check the specs when you get down to a short list of possibles.

 

Not sure what you are getting at here.

 

Just because there is a computer and software (that's basically all ANY command station is (albeit a microcontroller and formware), doesn't mean you REQUIRE decoder definitions. It's perfectly easy (with JMRI at least) to interrogate ANY decoder CV by CV, just as you would do with a system that is not connected to a computer. Without the software and the decoder definition you will need to be able to interpret the decoder documentation, which isn't always straightforward. What the software gives you is a far more human friendly user interface.

 

Andrew Crosland

sprog-dcc.co.uk

 

[Crosland]

9 minutes ago, Andymsa said:

Also do remember decoder pro WILL only program ESU decoders, it won't do other makes so using decoder pro will tie you to ESU decoders, which is what I use but I still have JMRI for those ready installed non ESU decoders.

 

I hope there's a typo in there somewhere, as that is completely wrong!

 

DecoderPro is part of JMRI and will handle ANY decoder that conforms to the standards.

Edited December 29, 2019 by Crosland

[Izzy]

Okay, to give you some idea of what a Sprog is, and JMRI/Decoder Pro here are a few shots which might help. Let me first say that my Sprog is an early version (2.7) II, and I feel, and am not afraid to say, that it is probably one of the best bits of kit I have bought, so I am not un-baised. As well as a programmer a Sprog can be used in command station mode as a DCC system. You can even use android/apple phones/tablets as wi-fi throttles if you choose.

 

I use a Prodigy Advance 2 (squared) as my day-to-day system and quite happily POM (program on the main) with it, but the advantage of the Sprog/DP is it requires no knowledge of cv's since it uses a graphical interface with descriptions of what can be changed. This is of course so long as a decoder definition file has been generated and is in the latest version of JMRI. Most are or get added over time. There is a vast list.

 

Here are the basics bits

 

and hooked up to my little Medion (11.6") netbook/laptop with a Hornby J15 on the track. This has a Zimo MX645 sound decoder fitted.

 

 

This is JMRI loading

 

This is the the Decoder Pro roster interface

 

 

You will see with this particular decoder there are a large number of tabs relating to cv programming, which is broken into sections.

 

 

Below is the 'basic' tab. Each tab/window is called a 'sheet', as you would a sheet of paper. So you can 'read' a sheet' Or select a particular box on it, change the values, and the 'write' these changes to the sheet. Simples.

 

 

And this is the 'sound' tab

 

 

There is obviously an awful lot more to JMRI, masses of options, but it can be as simple or as complicated as you want.

 

 

You can currently get the Sprog 2 + power brick from Andrew for £60. (Sprog DCC).

JMRI can be downloaded along with Java. The latter needs to be installed because JMRI stands for Java Model Railway Interface. Which version of it can be installed depends on the version of Java.

 

Anyway, I hope this helps a bit .

 

regards all,

 

Izzy

 

[Andymsa]

59 minutes ago, Crosland said:

 

I hope there's a typo in there somewhere, as that is completely wrong!

 

DecoderPro is part of JMRI and will handle ANY decoder that conforms to the standards.

 

Thanks crossland, I was having a senior momoment there I meant the ESU lok Programmer, not decoder pro apologies for the error.

[Kaput]

One thing with the SPROG and connecting to a PC I've not seen mentioned is you may have to jump through a couple of hoops to get Windows 10 to load the drivers properly - there is instructions on the SPROG website but I don't think I had to do it last time i wiped my PC and reinstalled everything so you might avoid that hassle.

[grriff]

Bear in mind that if JMRI does not recognise the decoder,  you can use the Direct NMRA option for decoders not in the list. The only disadvantage is that the JRMI software does not 'interpret' the CVs into the functions they perform, you just get a list of CVs and their values, not all the tabs shown in the screenshots above.  DCC Concepts produce a manual for their decoders https://www.dccconcepts.com/manual/zen-black-decoder-manual/ which can be useful for those CVs which should apply to all decoders. The NMRA list is here.

Although the SPROGII is primarily considered for writing and reading CVs, I use one on my small layout (i.e. one loco at at a time) as my main controller, using JRMI with 'Engine Driver' on a smartphone.

[Crosland]

38 minutes ago, Kaput said:

One thing with the SPROG and connecting to a PC I've not seen mentioned is you may have to jump through a couple of hoops to get Windows 10 to load the drivers properly - there is instructions on the SPROG website but I don't think I had to do it last time i wiped my PC and reinstalled everything so you might avoid that hassle.

 

It depends on the exact model and OS version, due to Microsoft's changing policy on unsigned drivers in Win 8 and above.

 

Recent production (SPROG IIv3 and IIv4) with Win10 can just be plugged in and it will use Windows' own built-in driver.

 

There is a way to hack old SPROGs and revert to the signed FTDI drivers. There's a post on the SPROG user group https://groups.io/g/sprog-dcc/topic/sprog_ii_and_windows_10_a/28836868?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate%2Fsticky,,,20,2,0,28836868 

[Firecracker]

Right, I’m rapidly coming round to the idea of a laptop and SPROG.  Thanks all, particularly Izzy for those screenshots, very much appreciated.  I think the new year laptop upgrade to put a boot under my stagnant CAD abilities just got a second string to its bow.  Thanks again, I’m sure I’ll have further stupid questions.

 

Owain

[Firecracker]

3 hours ago, Izzy said:

Okay, to give you some idea of what a Sprog is, and JMRI/Decoder Pro here are a few shots which might help.

 

<snipped a lot of superb and very helpful stuff so the reply doesn’t end up 3 miles long>

 

Might help?  More like push me into the decision!

 

You can currently get the Sprog 2 + power brick from Andrew for £60. (Sprog DCC).

JMRI can be downloaded along with Java. The latter needs to be installed because JMRI stands for Java Model Railway Interface. Which version of it can be installed depends on the version of Java.

 

Anyway, I hope this helps a bit .

 

regards all,

 

Izzy

Right.  First up, many thanks for those shots, that’s exactly the sort of stuff I’m after.  I’d found the SPROG’s online separately, but wasn’t sure of the setup.  I’d also found the JMRI site, which I’d done a disservice by assuming it focussed on the control rather than programming.  My mistake.  Excellent, thanks for your help.

 

Owain

[Firecracker]

 

4 hours ago, Crosland said:

 

The SPROG and JMRI will work on Windows, Linux and MacOS. Recent SPROGs simply plug in and work, once you select the correct COM port or tty device. No need for any special drivers.

 

 <snipped>

 

Just because there is a computer and software (that's basically all ANY command station is (albeit a microcontroller and formware), doesn't mean you REQUIRE decoder definitions. It's perfectly easy (with JMRI at least) to interrogate ANY decoder CV by CV, just as you would do with a system that is not connected to a computer. Without the software and the decoder definition you will need to be able to interpret the decoder documentation, which isn't always straightforward. What the software gives you is a far more human friendly user interface.

 

Andrew Crosland

sprog-dcc.co.uk

 

Thanks for that, it’s very much appreciated.  Your last sentence is exactly what I’m after.  Also if it’s plug and play (which I assume any new SPROG ordered once I get the wallet prised open will be), then it’s about my level of IT work.  Excellent, many thanks.

 

Owain 

Edited December 29, 2019 by Firecracker

[ELTEL]

I’ve recently purchased a Sprog III which came with a USB stick from Sprog to load the drivers.

 

I confess I am a computer Programmer installer Luddite (hence 15 years ago I move to Apple)

 

However I do have a Windows based laptop and Windows is up to date, but I don’t know how to load the Sprog drivers from the supplied USB stick supplied with the Sprog a couple of months ago when I bought the Sprog III

 

Strangely I can use the Sprog III  to operate the locomotive and all works fine, but press the Program button and nothing happens.

 

I get a error message saying no connection.

 

Eltel 

[Crosland]

58 minutes ago, ELTEL said:

However I do have a Windows based laptop and Windows is up to date, but I don’t know how to load the Sprog drivers from the supplied USB stick supplied with the Sprog a couple of months ago when I bought the Sprog III

 

Strangely I can use the Sprog III  to operate the locomotive and all works fine, but press the Program button and nothing happens.

 

I get a error message saying no connection.

 

If it's WIndows 10 and a new SPROG then you do not need any drivers.

 

If you can run a locomotive then everything is basically working. Did you setup DecoderPro for SPROG mode (programmer) or  SPROG command station mode?

 

Could you capture the exact error message, maybe a screen shot?

 

Andrew Crosland

SPROG DCC Ltd

[ELTEL]

Andrew 
 

I’ve since found out from my son that my laptop is loaded with Windows XP 64 Bit

 

I will send you a screen shot taken with my iPad of what I see in a short while.

 

Thanks

 

Terry 

[ELTEL]

Further to my email of  about 15 minutes ago.

 

I have now removed the JMRI program of my laptop.

 

Looking at the JMRI website it looks to me as if different version of JMRI needs to be uploaded for Windows XP 64 bit.

 

Perhaps you could send the correct link I need to load the correct JMRI software.

 

Many thanks

 

Terry