Pullmans + blood & custard stock?

[spikey]

In the early 60s,  could there have been any circumstances apart from ECS movements in which a short steam-hauled train of blood and custard Mk1s might have been seen with a couple of Mk1 Pullmans added at the front end of it?

[RFS]

The Southern Region ran a number of Kent Coast services with a couple of Pullmans inserted into a rake of crimson-and-cream MK1s. Have a look at this 1960 video here -

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEozeWXSoxk&t=3s), in particular at 1m45s, where there's a train consisting of a 4-car c/c MK1 set, two Pullmans in the middle and a couple of green Maunsells on the end to complete a colourful rake. All swept away by the Kent Coast electrification schemes completed in 1959 and 1961/2. 

Edited January 18, 2020 by RFS

[bécasse]

2 minutes ago, RFS said:

The Southern Region ran a number of Kent Coast services with a couple of Pullmans inserted into a rake of crimson-and-cream MK1s. Have a look at this 1960 video here -

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEozeWXSoxk&t=3s), in particular at 1m45s, where there's a train consisting of a 4-car c/c MK1 set, two Pullmans in the middle and a couple of green Maunsells on the end to complete a colourful rake. All swept away by the Kent Coast electrification schemes completed in 1959 and 1961/2. 

Not quite.

The Kentish Belle was a Pullman only train on the Kent Coast route that ran for the duration of each years summer timetable until 1958 (inclusive). During the winter timetable until June 1959 an unnamed train ran in similar timings which was ordinary stock (MkI 3 or 4 set plus some Maunsell swingers, the former in c/c the latter in green) plus a couple of Pullman cars.

On the Charing Cross-Hastings line Pullman Buffet Cars were used with ordinary stock but they all had to be Restriction 0 vehicles (which is why the Pullman Buffets were used) ruling out MkIs.

The Golden Arrow was typically a mixed formation of Pullmans and ordinary stock, at least during the winter months.

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, spikey said:

In the early 60s,  could there have been any circumstances apart from ECS movements in which a short steam-hauled train of blood and custard Mk1s might have been seen with a couple of Mk1 Pullmans added at the front end of it?

 

Extremely doubtful.

 

When first built they were mainly used in sets with a 1928 Pullman at each end and most blood and custards would have been painted by the time they appeared in 1960 anyway. They tended to put newer coaches into the prestigious trains rather than older liveried stock. They replaced the Pullman brakes with maroon BGs in the mid 1960s. They didn't build a Mark One Pullman Brake although I believe they issued a diagram for them.

 

It was not really until the later 1960s that they started to be used more with other Mark Ones due to declining demand for Pullmans.

 

http://www.emgauge70s.co.uk/proto_pullman.html

 

 

Jason

[spikey]

Ah, thank you.  So what if I re-phrased the question to make it a short rake of maroon Mk1s with a couple of Pullmans up front?

[Joseph_Pestell]

2 hours ago, spikey said:

Ah, thank you.  So what if I re-phrased the question to make it a short rake of maroon Mk1s with a couple of Pullmans up front?

 

I don't think so. Off the Southern, the only BR era train that I can think of with a mix of Pullmans and ordinary Mk1s is the Tyne-Tees. But that mix only started in 1969 by which time we were well into the blue era.

 

A bit "Rule One" but if it had ever been necessary to run a relief train for a Pullman, that might have had a mixed rake.

[spikey]

2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

... if it had ever been necessary to run a relief train for a Pullman, that might have had a mixed rake.

 

Hmmm I wonder ...  What's driving this is a distinct memory of seeing a train of no more than 4 blood 'n' custards behind a couple of Pullmans pulling into a platform at York, probably 1960 give or take a year or two.  The loco looked like a B1 from where we trainspotters were, but before we could confirm that or find out what the Pullmans were about, somebody spotted Wine Gums coming towards us.  He was a porter who had A Reputation, so we beat a hasty retreat, in the course of which I lost the cheese and pickle sandwich which I'd just started eating.  That's why the memory's locked in what's ;eft of my brain. 

[30851]

9 hours ago, spikey said:

Ah, thank you.  So what if I re-phrased the question to make it a short rake of maroon Mk1s with a couple of Pullmans up front?

 

Best bet would be the Bradford portion of the Yorkshire Pullman in the 60's. This portion ran between Leeds and Bradford  with 2 or 3 MK 1 Pullmans and a MK1 BCK. The BCK was added between Leeds and Bradford as there was no Pullman brake in this portion.  At the start of the 60's the MK1 would be maroon and the Pullmans in traditional colours but by 1967 both the Pullmans and the BCK could be blue and grey.

 

This portion of the Pullman was also famous for still being steam hauled until September 1967.

 

Rob 

[Joseph_Pestell]

10 hours ago, spikey said:

 

Hmmm I wonder ...  What's driving this is a distinct memory of seeing a train of no more than 4 blood 'n' custards behind a couple of Pullmans pulling into a platform at York, probably 1960 give or take a year or two.  The loco looked like a B1 from where we trainspotters were, but before we could confirm that or find out what the Pullmans were about, somebody spotted Wine Gums coming towards us.  He was a porter who had A Reputation, so we beat a hasty retreat, in the course of which I lost the cheese and pickle sandwich which I'd just started eating.  That's why the memory's locked in what's ;eft of my brain. 

 

Another possibility would be a couple of Pullmans being moved somewhere as ecs but moved in a passenger train to save a special.

[Joseph_Pestell]

6 hours ago, 30851 said:

 

Best bet would be the Bradford portion of the Yorkshire Pullman in the 60's. This portion ran between Leeds and Bradford  with 2 or 3 MK 1 Pullmans and a MK1 BCK. The BCK was added between Leeds and Bradford as there was no Pullman brake in this portion.  At the start of the 60's the MK1 would be maroon and the Pullmans in traditional colours but by 1967 both the Pullmans and the BCK could be blue and grey.

 

This portion of the Pullman was also famous for still being steam hauled until September 1967.

 

Rob 

 

Not if he saw it at York.

 

But still grateful for your info. I find all these West Yorkshire workings very interesting.

[The Johnster]

58 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

nother possibility would be a couple of Pullmans being moved somewhere as ecs but moved in a passenger train to save a special.

Sorry, unlikely.  Stock being transferred, Pullmans included, would be forwarded on the next available parcels service.

[Steamport Southport]

Possibly a race special if at York.

 

 

 

Jason

[30851]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Not if he saw it at York.

 

But still grateful for your info. I find all these West Yorkshire workings very interesting.

 

Are you saying I should read ALL the posts before I post anything...…..

 

But to go back to the question now I have seen all of it one possibility that if it is 1960 then it might have been a special to test the new MK1 Pullmans as they were delivered 60-61.

 

 

Rob

[Wickham Green]

11 hours ago, 30851 said:

 

But to go back to the question now I have seen all of it one possibility that if it is 1960 then it might have been a special to test the new MK1 Pullmans as they were delivered 60-61.

 

Unlikely to be a test run from Metro Cammell in Brum - unless there was some particular reason they had to be checked-out on York ( by top brass p'raps ? ).