Tyteford Halte

[MrWolf]

I might just need to have a dig in The Box of Doom and find the requisite parts for mine.

[MrWolf]

I love how the instructions in a lot of those old kits say "first find good photographs and an accurate drawing" 

Because their assembly diagram seems to be done on a beermat with a leaking biro. A lump, which is probably the dynamo and a line, pointing vaguely at the solebar. Same with battery boxes, queen posts etc.

If only they'd had the foresight to say - chuck the parts in a drawer for four decades and along will come a thing called the internet, with so much conflicting information......

[Keith Addenbrooke]

9 hours ago, MrWolf said:

I love how the instructions in a lot of those old kits say "first find good photographs and an accurate drawing" 

Because their assembly diagram seems to be done on a beermat with a leaking biro. A lump, which is probably the dynamo and a line, pointing vaguely at the solebar. Same with battery boxes, queen posts etc.

If only they'd had the foresight to say - chuck the parts in a drawer for four decades and along will come a thing called the internet, with so much conflicting information......

I recently opened a kit to find the instructions included the fax number to contact for any missing parts enquiries.  Odd thing was, it was quite a new kit - they’d just never updated the instructions by the look of it.  Anyway, good to see Tyteford back in business here on RMweb: will follow this new build with interest, Keith.

 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Keith Addenbrooke

[MAP66]

9 hours ago, MrWolf said:

Because their assembly diagram seems to be done on a beermat with a leaking biro. A lump, which is probably the dynamo and a line, pointing vaguely at the solebar. Same with battery boxes, queen posts etc.

Your right about some of those old kits, the auto coach detailing kit is quite a few years old now I think and in my opinion in dire need of a re-write on the instruction/diagram side. The white metal casts are quite good though with not too much flash. More importantly, they’re mostly identifiable, where to locate them is another matter.

 

I watched Hornby A model World last night and in particular took interest in what’s involved with the relaunch of the Airfix Mark IX Spitfire 1/24th scale. Airfix staff test build the kits to see if they assemble correctly and that instructions make sense and are easy to follow. I see no reason why even the smallest model railway manufacturer shouldn’t follow this practice in their kits and photograph the various stages to include as part of the instructions. Some kit manufacturers for some reason still use very dated  and badly printed line drawings – I note Keith’s recent experience with the fax number still on the instructions!

[MrWolf]

I've managed to find my kit. The instructions are quite comprehensive and detailed. Although some of the sketches could do with an upgrade.

That said, is it worth their expense now? Are there enough of us old school twits who actually want to upgrade these old models? (It's certainly a budget friendly, entertaining and educational way to get a nice model that you will have some attachment to.) Or do the makers feel it not worth the trouble if they're only selling a few kits a year and the whole thing could be usurped any day by a far superior RTR offering at a pre order price of "only" £139.99?

The upside is that we can buy a mint boxed Airfix autocoach to upgrade for a tenner.

As for the plastic kits, they would definitely sell better to novices and experienced alike if the drawings were of the same quality as Airfix kits from six decades ago.

Particularly if it was made clear whether ends fitted between sides or vise versa -  are you listening?

 

Yes, you! Makers of plastic wagon kits. I also happen to know the very person to create the assembly drawings....

[MAP66]

Well done for finding the kit, hopefully we can compare notes. I must confess that I first attempted this kit some years ago and promptly abandoned it after only spending a couple of hours on it, far too confusing for me at the time. I was prompted by an article in BRM (Oct 2018 pg 64-67) where Phil Parker took on the very same detailing kit. This feature had some step by step photographs but Phil sensibly opted to omit some of the detailing parts. I’m hoping to include all of them, if possible.

 

Anyway, this is why the auto coach is already dismantled with screw link couplings fitted, coz that’s as far as I got last time 😖

This time around, I plan to provide a blow by blow account with images (perhaps with arrows pointing at things) to get this auto coach detailed as per the instructions. I may fail, but I will go down fighting never the less.

So, with that in mind, my normal modelling service will resume shortly. I am still experiencing some technical issues!

[MAP66]

Right let’s talk you through how far I got first time around. I first dismantled the auto coach by following the instructions in the detailing kit. There is some preparation work required to the underframe before you can start adding the detailing parts. At this stage it’s a good idea to identify one end of the coach from the other (see first image) I marked a ‘D’ for driving end on the underside of the underframe. The other end is where the loco is coupled up and referred to as the loco end in the instructions. Another way of identification, is by the step boards at each end of the coach. The shorter length steps are at the driving end and the longer at the loco end.

 

The Wheels / Bogies

I had the coach before I purchased the detailing kit and as I was converting to P4 gauge, I should have first tested to see if a set of P4 gauged wheels would fit within the bogie frames before buying the kit. I performed this test after buying the detailing kit and it was only by sheer chance that I was able to fit P4 wheels within the bogie frames without having to remove any material to make them wider. The original wheels were not fitted with any bearings and the clearance would have been too tight for me to fit any, so I left them out. It was a tight squeeze getting the P4 wheels in but they rotate freely without binding and there is still about 1/2mm side play.I tested it on the Tyteford Halte track and it ran smoothly along. However, there were no curves to negotiate, only the gentlest of S bends. 

 

Its difficult to comment at this early stage at to what would be the minimum radius that the auto coach could comfortably negotiate after all the detailing parts are fitted as they may/may not restrict the existing rotation of the bogies. In which case some additional side play of the wheels maybe of benefit to avoid derailment. If this is a concern for anyone with tighter radius curves then there is the option to omit or modify some of the detailing parts (particularly at the driving end) or perhaps for the more experienced modeller to build new bogie housings as Dart Castings also sell cosmetic side frames of which part numbers are listed in the instructions. I’m opting for the ‘suck it and see’ approach and using the original bogies. The only downside is, would it be acceptable for the more prototypical modeller? As the plastic moulded representations of the brake hangers and shoes are set far forward from the alignment of the wheels (see image) this would still be the case if you retained the original wheels. I’m OK with this for now, I may change my mind at some time in the future.

 

The final step here is to remove the coupling pockets which are moulded as part of the bogie. I used a disc cutter in a mini drill to perform this task. Just to clarify that you would not be able to retain the existing tension lock couplings as they would foul up against all the underside detailing parts, which is why I opted for screw link couplings.

 

My afterthoughts and comments on the above stage

In hindsight, I wish that I had painted the bogies before adding the wheels, so whatever gauge your working to, I would recommend proceeding as follows after first removing the bogies from the underframe;

1.      Remove the wheels.

2.      Cut off the coupling pockets from both bogies.

3.      Give the bogies a wash in mild detergent and use an old toothbrush or similar to get rid of any surface grease or oils, rinse and then

         dry thoroughly.

4.      Spray the bogies with something like Halfords grey car primer, make sure you first mask off the insides of the wheel frames to prevent              any paint clogging up the holes where the axle pivots locate.

5.      Paint or spray paint the Bogies with something like ‘weathered black’ from Railmatch, leave the masking in place.

6.      Then add the detail painting and weathering for the springs, brake shoes etc.

7.      Finally, give everything a final spray of matt varnish to seal everything.

8.      Remove masking and replace the wheels of your choice, I used P4 14mm diameter Mansell carriage wheels 18804 from Wizard Models.

9.      Install couplings, I used screw link.

10.    Replace bogie sets to underframe and give it a test run on a length of track.

 

The next post will be covering the further preparation necessary of the underframe prior to fitting the detailing parts.

 

 

Edited March 18, 2023 by MAP66
typo

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Very informative post, thank you - for anyone tackling a bogie in any scale (as you say).

 

Looks like you win one of those prizes occasionally awarded in railway modelling - no sooner does a build commence than a ready-to-run announcement is made - in this case Dapol have apparently revealed plans for a detailed 4mm Scale Autocoach at the Ally Pally exhibition.  No indication in the write up from BRM / World of Railways how easily it will concert from OO to P4 (or if that has been considered at this stage), but perhaps a classic case of timing nonetheless.

 

On the other hand, can be seen as motivation to press on and produce your own anyway.  Will continue to follow with interest, Keith.

[MAP66]

22 minutes ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Very informative post, thank you - for anyone tackling a bogie in any scale (as you say).

 

Looks like you win one of those prizes occasionally awarded in railway modelling - no sooner does a build commence than a ready-to-run announcement is made - in this case Dapol have apparently revealed plans for a detailed 4mm Scale Autocoach at the Ally Pally exhibition.  No indication in the write up from BRM / World of Railways how easily it will concert from OO to P4 (or if that has been considered at this stage), but perhaps a classic case of timing nonetheless.

 

On the other hand, can be seen as motivation to press on and produce your own anyway.  Will continue to follow with interest, Keith.

Guilty as charged, when I heard the news I thought typical 😄 Anyway, mine will be better and perhaps it will even be completed before Dapol release their version 😄

[MrWolf]

4 minutes ago, MAP66 said:

Guilty as charged, when I heard the news I thought typical 😄 Anyway, mine will be better and perhaps it will even be completed before Dapol release their version 😄

 

That's the spirit. It's certainly going to be cheaper, especially as you have most of the parts. I've decided, thanks to the depth of detail in your posting so far, to dig out the donor autocoach and have a go myself.

[MAP66]

1 minute ago, MrWolf said:

 

That's the spirit. It's certainly going to be cheaper, especially as you have most of the parts. I've decided, thanks to the depth of detail in your posting so far, to dig out the donor autocoach and have a go myself.

Nice one, big thumbs up from me 👍

[MrWolf]

Thanks, it's a project that has languished for years due to the lack of a layout. I'm certain that the Dapol offering will be exquisite and subsequently oversubscribed and on eBay like stocks and shares within weeks of the launch and if I was feeling lazy and rich, I could buy one. Then the stuff I've had for decades might as well go in the bin.

Besides, my other half has only just started her first proper job since university, so affording a bells and whistles version isn't an option and I got into modelling because I enjoy the challenge of making things.

 

 

[MAP66]

10 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

Thanks, it's a project that has languished for years due to the lack of a layout. I'm certain that the Dapol offering will be exquisite and subsequently oversubscribed and on eBay like stocks and shares within weeks of the launch and if I was feeling lazy and rich, I could buy one. Then the stuff I've had for decades might as well go in the bin.

Besides, my other half has only just started her first proper job since university, so affording a bells and whistles version isn't an option and I got into modelling because I enjoy the challenge of making things.

 

 

Time to blow the cobwebs off then and release the auto coach from the bucket of doom. Good that you enjoy a challenge as this will have some, nothing impossible though I feel. I will aim to post tomorrow how I went about preparing the underframe. 

[MAP66]

Preparation of the underframe – Removal of passenger steps, vacuum cylinders and battery boxes

 

First decide which version you are modelling, diagram A28 or A30. Differences between the two are briefly explained in the instructions. I have decided upon the A30 as the original Airfix model is more suited to diagram A30.

 

Next, decide if you want to retain the plastic moulded passenger steps located each side of the underframe. The detailing kit includes a brass fret containing all the parts for more detailed steps but I found them very fiddly to assemble. Another point to consider, which I am unable to confirm at this stage: would the brass steps foul on any platform edges as I think they may protrude out a little more than the moulded plastic steps. I will not be able to confirm either way until I fit the brass steps to the underside of the underframe and test for clearances. Unfortunately, me being me, I chopped the plastic steps off first and discarded them before attempting to assemble the brass step replacements.

 

Learning from my mistake, I would recommend attempting the brass steps first and if you are unable to assemble them, then you still have the option of retaining the plastic steps. I will be able to report later in the build if I am able to attach the brass steps and if they clear the platform edge.

 

Having explained the above we shall continue with the removal of the plastic moulded steps and the procedure is covered under item 2 (b) and with reference to figure 1 of the supplied instructions. The only tricky element is that you will have to cut through where the steps meet the truss rod as they are moulded together at this point. I managed to achieve this with a new cutting blade in my Swann Morton, also a new chisel blade, a graving tool, a razor saw and a degree of care and attention. Slow and steady is the aim here as you are at risk of breaking the truss rod if your too heavy handed.

 

Don’t give yourself a pat on the back just yet, as you need to adopt the same procedure for removal of the two battery boxes, item 2(a), (note the prototype had three battery boxes which are included in the kit) but even more care and attention is required here, as they are also moulded to the truss rods and the rods are very vulnerable to breakages. It is possible to remove the batteries though without breakages, as I managed it. However, don’t despair if you manage to break a truss rod as they can be repaired with a splint made from a thin strip of plasticard glued to the non-viewed side of the truss rod, when painted black it would be unnoticeable. Tip supplied by Phil Parker when he covered this detailing kit as mentioned earlier in the thread.

 

Next, we move onto removal of the two plastic moulded vacuum cylinders, still covered under item 2(a). For this, I made several cuts with a razor saw across the top of the dome going downwards towards the underframe and then removed the material bit by bit with side cutters. All remaining rough edges were cleaned up with a file afterwards.

 

The instructions also state that under item 2(a) the moulded ‘V’ hangers need to be removed. I chose to ignore this and have left them in place. My reasoning for this as follows; Under item 3.3(f) the instructions quote “On the prototype the outer ‘V’ hanger of each pair of vacuum brake cross shafts ‘V’ hangers was located outside the truss rod….” As the original moulded ‘V’ hangers are part of the truss rod, they already appear or could be passed off to be the outside hanger of each pair. Confused? I thought so, don’t worry it will make more sense later, for now trust me and leave the moulded V hangers in place.

Important Please Note

Ignore the above paragraph, you only need to remove the 'V' hanger at the drivers End. The Loco end can remain in place.

For reason why, please refer to @MrWolfpost of 27th March pg19.

 

After all that you should have something resembling the image below. If that’s the case, well done, take a break, have a lie down and when we return, things will start to get interesting.

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by MAP66
Wrong Information provided, now corrected

[MrWolf]

With you so far, coach dismantled, (I also took the "glass" out because I plan to paint the droplights and the interior, probably even add a few passengers.) bogies removed, plastic coupling blocks removed, ends marked up etc.

I've cut off the vacuum cylinders and the battery boxes, that's the pile of oddly shaped bits. Razor saw, knives and wire cutters required!

I've left on the outer V hangers until I know if they're relevant and the steps until I know if I can make a decent job of assembling replacements.

 

 

There has to be a few others out there with the necessary ingredients in a drawer. The detail kit is still available and a mint boxed autocoach can be yours for a tenner. 

[MAP66]

That looks like excellent work, I hope my commentary was helpful, even though it’s a bit long winded in places. It’s hard to get the balance right to suit all. I’m writing this with me in mind as a novice and if I had to follow the necessary steps myself.

 

Remember to put your screw link couplings in, they need to be fitted before you can proceed any further with the underframe detailing.

Glad you mentioned the glazing as I will be replacing it with the below flush glazing kit from SE Finecast, the instructions say that the A30 had flusher fitting windows than the glazing fitted to the model.

 

 

I’m intending to paint the interior of the coach like you, add some passengers and attempt some lighting. I’m going for late 1930’s vibe to fit in with Tyteford Halte. Do you have any info on GWR coach interior colour schemes for this time period?

 

Thankfully, you can clearly see the plastic passenger steps on your model as mine went in the bin after chopping them off. Its good that others will now be able to see what I was describing in the previous post. Which leads me onto my second question; Would you be able to measure and let me know how far the plastic steps protrude out from the side of the underframe. Thanks and much appreciated.

[MrWolf]

I also have the SEF flush glazing kit, not sure how confident I am with that, as the edges are rather pronounced and I have never found a glue that doesn't damage glazing that actually sticks well. Some smell very strong, but that's about it.

I think that we are going to have to do some homework on interior colour schemes for the A30, I was going to ask the same question!

The sketch below is a cross section of the underframe where the passenger steps are moulded on.

 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

1 hour ago, MrWolf said:

I have never found a glue that doesn't damage glazing that actually sticks well.

Have you tried Deluxe materials Glue ‘n’ Glaze.  As a polymer it dries clear.  It was recommended to me for fixing add-on details to rolling stock but I’ve mainly used it for buildings so far.  I don’t know how strong it would be for rolling stock in regular use on a layout, sorry.  Keith.

[MrWolf]

I have and it works reasonably well on buildings. It didn't like the weird nylon like material that some laser cut plastic sash windows are made of. The slightest pressure and it gave way. I resorted to super glue having roughened the surface a little. It worked really well on traditional styrene parts, though I haven't tried to force anything apart. I used to use Revell Contacta and other similar glues, but something has changed in these and although they still smell potent they don't have any grab at all.

I've resorted to using sparing amounts of Gorilla Gel superglue with good results for home made loco cab glazing etc.

[Nick C]

14 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

It didn't like the weird nylon like material that some laser cut plastic sash windows are made of.

Hardly any glues like that stuff!

 

Apparently they have to use it as you can't laser cut Styrene - it'll give off some very nasty chemicals if you try. Presumably why most use some form of wood or card instead - which do take glues well...

[MrWolf]

1 minute ago, Nick C said:

Hardly any glues like that stuff!

 

Apparently they have to use it as you can't laser cut Styrene - it'll give off some very nasty chemicals if you try. Presumably why most use some form of wood or card instead - which do take glues well...

 

Burning plastic is never a good idea. Water jetting is probably too brutal!

Those silhouette cutters work though???

[MAP66]

2 hours ago, MrWolf said:

I also have the SEF flush glazing kit, not sure how confident I am with that, as the edges are rather pronounced and I have never found a glue that doesn't damage glazing that actually sticks well. Some smell very strong, but that's about it.

I think that we are going to have to do some homework on interior colour schemes for the A30, I was going to ask the same question!

The sketch below is a cross section of the underframe where the passenger steps are moulded on.

 

 

Much appreciated on the measurements and taking the time to sketch it out. I’m going to see if I can finish assembling the brass steps and compare finished dimensions. More importantly, see if they would foul against the platform edging. If they do, I guess I will just fit to one side of the coach seeing as only one side will be in view.

[MrWolf]

Before I go much further I will refit the bogies to the chassis and test run it, though I am certain that it cleared the platform on my layout.

 

Don't forget that what really sticks out are the two wire handrails, although they can be "adjusted" for clearance.

Its clear that the steps aren't going to stick out any more than the handrails. So if the brass one is used, it should fall into the same dimensions or a little less.

[Nick C]

58 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

Those silhouette cutters work though???

They use a blade though, so presumably can cut anything that's thin, flat and soft enough...

[MrWolf]

I've reassembled the bogies to the chassis, fitted metal wheels, filled the holes in the floor and done a clearance test on the platform.

I've also realised that the handrails that protrude from the sides are no wider than the top step at platform level.

I've got a couple of millimetres clearance. I fitted the platform in such a way as to clear cylinders on GWR locos and the step boards on my stock that is pretty much all based on vandalised converted Tri-ang clerestories and Ratio four wheelers.