Locomotive nameplate colours

[Fredo]

Hi, does anyone have any thoughts on sources we could use to investigate the colour of nameplates carried at different times for some research we are doing. We are particularly interested in Merchant Navy’s, Bulleid Light Pacific’s, Britannia’s and A4’s. At the moment we are having to look through photos and colour ones can be hard to find.

 Thanks Fred and Alistair 

[TonyMay]

I'd say colour photos for most of these should be available.  Try https://colourrail.co.uk/ 

[Steamport Southport]

Basic rules were.

 

Merchant Navy red.

West Country red.

Battle Of Britain blue.

 

http://www.bulleidsociety.org/OVS_Bulleid/OVSB_Pacific_Summaries.html

 

Britannia's red or black. I think some Scottish ones were blue (70040 Clive Of India rings a bell).

A4s red or black.

 

 

Obviously check as there were a few variations such as some Merchant Navy's received black nameplates.

 

 

Jason

[pH]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Britannia's red or black. I think some Scottish ones were blue (70040 Clive Of India rings a bell).

 

70040 was never a Scottish engine. The nearest it got was Kingmoor, for the last three years before withdrawal.

 

Edit - this post says 70049 had blue plates: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/139601-britannia-nameplates/&do=findComment&comment=3371318 

 

It, too, only got as close as Kingmoor to a Scottish shed.

 

Edited January 27, 2020 by pH

[Fredo]

Thanks for replies.

in terms of Merchant Navy’s , West Country’s and Battle of Britain’s did some of them have black nameplates at any time?

[Pre Grouping fan]

1 hour ago, Fredo said:

Thanks for replies.

in terms of Merchant Navy’s , West Country’s and Battle of Britain’s did some of them have black nameplates at any time?

Yes, or at least some rebuilt light pacifics have carried black nameplates in preservation, Braunton and Taw Valley for example. Pretty sure they did back in the day but bit sure when or why

[The Johnster]

GW named locos carried red backed nameplates (and all carried red backed number plates) if they were repainted between 1/1/48 and the veryearly 50s; not sure when the practice stopped.  Smokebox number plates were black backed AFAIK.  The WR’s Britannias all had black backed nameplates. 

[Steamport Southport]

9 hours ago, pH said:

 

70040 was never a Scottish engine. The nearest it got was Kingmoor, for the last three years before withdrawal.

 

Edit - this post says 70049 had blue plates: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/139601-britannia-nameplates/&do=findComment&comment=3371318 

 

It, too, only got as close as Kingmoor to a Scottish shed.

 

 

Kingmoor was Scottish Region at one point - 68A. It was Caledonian Railway after all.

 

But they were painting locomotives with blue plates regardless of which region it was at the time. Probably still a lot of CR loyalty around.

 

And yes. Clive Of India did have blue 'plates. Unfortunately I can't link to the photo I've found for some reason.

 

 

 

Jason

[Robin Brasher]

The subject of nameplate colours for BR black southern region locomotives is considered in detail in Section 4.4 on page 148 of 'Southern Style After Nationalisation,  1948 - 1964 by John Harvey. The nameplate background in December 1949 was the same shade as the wheel on the BR crest. It was similar to Humbrol No. 153 Insignia Red. I assume that most BR green and BR blue southern region numberplates were the same colour. The Battle of Britain class nameplates were medium blue. Between April 1952 and mid 1962 nameplates were painted black. Then they tended to revert to their normal colour.

 

I assume that the same principles applied to ex LNER locomotives.

[pH]

6 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Kingmoor was Scottish Region at one point - 68A. It was Caledonian Railway after all.

 

But they were painting locomotives with blue plates regardless of which region it was at the time. Probably still a lot of CR loyalty around.

 

And yes. Clive Of India did have blue 'plates. Unfortunately I can't link to the photo I've found for some reason.

 

Yes, it was originally Caledonian, and was 68A for some time under Nationalisation. It became a London Midland shed early in 1958, several years before 70040 or 70049 were allocated there, though I agree that it is sometimes considered a Scottish shed even after 1958.

 

(I'm not trying to be awkward or sarcastic with the rest of this post.) I visited Kingmoor four times between 1963 and 1967, and saw many Kingmoor engines in Scotland over that time. I can't remember a single one with any plate - nameplate, smokebox numberplate or shedplate - with a blue background. If you can link to, or post, pictures of any I would be genuinely interested to see them. I hope you manage to post the one of 70040.

[Forester]

On 27/01/2020 at 05:11, Steamport Southport said:

Basic rules were.

 

Merchant Navy red.

West Country red.

Battle Of Britain blue.

 

 Not quite.

Merchant Navy & West Country nameplates were red and Battle of Britain nameplates blue when built in Southern Railway colours.

British Railways ordered black nameplates when they were painted into BR Green.

Nameplates started to drift from black back to red (some Battle of Britains into blue and some into red) later in the 1950s.

Early rebuilds were black and later rebuilds red.

Merchant Navy and West Country nameplates were all in red by the early 1960s

Battle of Britain nameplates remained a mix of red, black and blue until withdrawal.

[Bulleidboy100]

I have only just picked up this thread, but I think it depends on the era you are modelling as to the nameplate colour on Merchant Navy Class loco's. There are a number of pictures around that show a black painted plates as late as 1965. From reading, which I'm sure you have all done, Eastleigh either didn't get the message or had an abundance of black paint, so loco's were still coming from a "service" with black painted name plates, when they were, supposedly, supposed to be red.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Bulleidboy100

[RAF96]

LC&DR on the Hornby forum ‘works’ at the NRM in York and has access to their records.

He is a mine of such information as we seek and frequents the Hornby forum which may be back up after this weekend if the developer activity indicators are anything to go by.

[Tobbes]

Sorry to revive this thread, but is there a database of when the nameplates were painted blue or red from black please?

 

I'm working on August 1960 which for Light Pacifics is a (fascinating) minefield of original/rebuilt; AWS or not; full rave tenders (with early or late emblem) or cut down, speedos or not - so a firm 'no red or blue until 1962' would be great... many thanks in advance.  (The only variant I can't find evidence of is a rebuilt pacific with a high rave tender... other than that, virtually all combinations seem to have happened that summer!)

Edited August 14, 2023 by Tobbes

[Steamport Southport]

16 hours ago, Tobbes said:

Sorry to revive this thread, but is there a database of when the nameplates were painted blue or red from black please?

 

I'm working on August 1960 which for Light Pacifics is a (fascinating) minefield of original/rebuilt; AWS or not; full rave tenders (with early or late emblem) or cut down, speedos or not - so a firm 'no red or blue until 1962' would be great... many thanks in advance.  (The only variant I can't find evidence of is a rebuilt pacific with a high rave tender... other than that, virtually all combinations seem to have happened that summer!)

 

Quite a lot of information on the Bulleid Society website.

 

https://www.bulleidsociety.org/OVS_Bulleid/OVSB_Pacific_Summaries.html

 

I have no idea of whether the information you want is contained in a book. There are a lot of books on the Bulleid Pacifics. I would think you would need to look at photos, they were very well documented compared to most classes.

 

Google Image the number and name. This is what comes up for 35001 Channel Packet.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?sca_esv=557070720&sxsrf=AB5stBj9qkNJn231N0BX6LWzI9hNHGPuAQ:1692096776821&q=35001+channel+packet&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiwgrvav96AAxWGIMAKHSJVBaYQ0pQJegQICxAB&biw=1536&bih=746&dpr=1.25

 

 

Jason

[Bulleidboy100]

On 14/08/2023 at 19:06, Tobbes said:

Sorry to revive this thread, but is there a database of when the nameplates were painted blue or red from black please?

 

I'm working on August 1960 which for Light Pacifics is a (fascinating) minefield of original/rebuilt; AWS or not; full rave tenders (with early or late emblem) or cut down, speedos or not - so a firm 'no red or blue until 1962' would be great... many thanks in advance.  (The only variant I can't find evidence of is a rebuilt pacific with a high rave tender... other than that, virtually all combinations seem to have happened that summer!)

 35020 Bibby Line ran with a high rave tender in 1956 (see page 40  of A.J.Fry's  Bulleid Power - The Merchant Navy Class).

I borrowed the as built 35028 Clan Line tender for this picture - hence lining is a different colour.

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by Bulleidboy100

[sirwilliamfrs]

Maybe not quite on topic but can anyone shed any light on the distinct memory I have of Jubilee 45581 'Bihar And Orissa' on a freight train on the Bootle-Aintree branch around 1961/2? The nameplate was painted orange and white, divided horizontally in the centre, with polished brass letters as usual. 

[Tobbes]

On 19/08/2023 at 12:18, Bulleidboy100 said:

 35020 Bibby Line ran with a high rave tender in 1956 (see page 40  of A.J.Fry's  Bulleid Power - The Merchant Navy Class).

I borrowed the as built 35028 Clan Line tender for this picture - hence lining is a different colour.

 

Splendid - every day is school day, very many thanks. It doesn't look bad, either!