Lower Thames Yard

[Tallpaul69]

Greetings one and All,

I have now had a visit from a second layout builder.

 

It is interesting where there were commonalities in their approaches and also differences, so some food for thought while I am waiting the next couple of weeks for their responses.

There may of course be some queries from them and requests for further information or more pictures, i will wait and see!

 

I will keep you posted.

Best regards

Paul

[Tallpaul69]

They tell me it is summer, but I don't know about you folks, to me its more like April?

 

Anyway, on the modelling front a copy of a WTT for Section A Freight for the London Area of Western Region September 1962 to June 1963 has arrived. I am pleased with the condition of it, as the binding looked a bit stressed on the Bay photos, but in the flesh proved quite good.

 

I had been looking for this item for some 5 years ,so I thought it worth taking a chance on this one.

 

Armed with this and the Passenger and parcels companion volume I already had together with my Paddington arrivals and departures volume covering the same dates, I can now get to grips with my running timetable for Bradenham. My intention is to extend a few of the trains from the south that in reality started or terminated  at High Wycombe to Bradenham. Similarly some trains from the north or west that terminated at Princes Risborough will be extended to Bradenham or High Wycombe.

 

In addition Bradenham shed will provide the Princes Risborough shunter that in reality came from Aylesbury, the High Wycombe shunter that in reality was  a 24 hour outstation from Slough, and the fictional Wycombe End and Bradenham shunters. 

Other duties for Bradenham locos will include the J15 for the Chinnor coal trains that also in reality came from Aylesbury, and a 2-6-4T or my A5 4-6-2T for the first commuter train to Marylebone.

 

This train's coaches will be overnighted in the long carriage siding beside Bradenham shed, hopefully formed of a Gresley Quad Art (Curtesy of Ellis Clark, next year).  The idea is that this set will be a rush hour only train that will return to sit (and be admired!) in the Bradenham carriage siding from mid morning to mid afternoon, and all evening!  

 

Visiting locos will include the 61xx off the morning Reading to Princes Risborough Parcels, on its way back, LE to Slough; and Eastern or London Midland locos off Leicester or Woodford to High Wycombe coal trains. 

 

Cheers, All,

Paul

[Tallpaul69]

Good afternoon everyone,

I am hoping that no news is good news as I haven't heard any queries from the two layout builders who visited me.

Hopefully i will hear something in the way of estimates next week!

 

Meanwhile, I am still pondering a revised name for the joined layouts.

This has lead me to looking at OS Explorer map 192 which covers the area as I ponder where Wycombe End might reasonably be placed. Operationally, my application of rule 1, and my signalling plan, allows the Bradenham to Wycombe End pick up freight to work wrong road up the down main to reach Wycombe End which allegedly had no up to down mainline crossover! In reality this train runs round the layout , through the fiddle yard, to reach the junction for Wycombe End which is only round the bend from the down end of Bradenham.

 

So Geographically, in reality, this would place Wycombe End on the down side of the mainline, somewhere between Bradenham and West Wycombe stations. This is not, in reality, a very likely area for an industrial development, it is too rural. However there is a row of houses on the main Wycombe to Princes Risborough road around the place that the railway crosses that road, so I may use this as the location for Wycombe End. These houses don't have any names on the OS, but a look at a larger scale map of the area may give something? 

 

Originally, I had in my mind, positioned Wycombe End  beside, but at a different level to the mainline. However, as there will now not be a mainline passing in front of Wycombe End on the layout,  it could be further away from the mainline on the map, and the approach could turn through an angle away from the mainline.  

 

The only modelling I am doing at present is to continue the long term job of applying Kadees to my rolling stock. My present intention is to only apply them to stock that will be shunted. So much modern freight stock and most of the coaching stock will only have them on the ends of the rakes. A number of parcels vans will have Kadees all round as the vans from the early morning Reading to Princes Risborough train returned individually on different passenger trains through the afternoon and early evening from Aylesbury to Maidenhead before being reunited on the 8.10pm Maidenhead to Reading Parcels train.

 

Hope you and yours are not affected by the awful wildfires in Europe!

Best regards

Paul 

[Tallpaul69]

So here is an update on my thinking on Wycombe End's location and the layout name:-

 

A study on Google earth and Google Street of the area between Bradenham village and the bridge to the south where the railway crosses the Wycombe - Princes Risborough road has shown me that the area of the houses around the railway bridge do not appear to have a name. I have therefore decided that this will in my model world be Bradenham Wycombe End! After all it is on the way to Wycombe and small areas of housing which form part of a larger village are often called "xxxx End".

 

Also the area immediately to the west of the railway around this bridge, while not completely flat, is flat enough that an industrial area such as my "Wycombe End" could have been built there in the 1960s as an offshoot of industrial High Wycombe.

Much of High Wycombe's furniture industry, was until fairly recently, housed in old and cramped factories near the town centre. Thus a move to more modern premises similar to those enjoyed by their competitors in other parts of the country, is not an unreasonable idea. 

 

Currently , I am thinking that the layout could be called "Bradenham:- Station and Wycombe End Yard", (or Bradenham for short!).

 

I have also been thinking about the operation and protection of the trains running up the down main line between Bradenham Station and Wycombe End Yard. It seems reasonable that access to the down line in the up direction would be controlled by a staff similar to a single line staff and that would hold a key to release a ground frame that would give the driver control of  access from the down main into the Yard, and protect it by a home signal. That signal would in turn be protected by a fixed distant signal further towards High Wycombe. Most likely there would also be a telephone on the ground frame to allow the driver to communicate with the signal man at Bradenham.

 

Doubtless readers more expert in such matters will soon put me right if the above is at odds with Br (W) practice?

 

Cheers

Paul

[David Bigcheeseplant]

The area there the railway passes over the A4010 between Saunderton and High Wycombe is called Pictonville, although the nameboards on the road now just say West Wycombe so maybe Pictonville would be a better name for you.

David 

[Tallpaul69]

Thanks for the info David,

It suggests that Pictonville is part of West Wycombe rather than Bradenham. 

So maybe a name for the layout more in keeping with these facts is Bradenham and Pictonville?

 

I will have to see what else I can turn up about Pictonville. As it stands I am rather attached to Wycombe End, but currently I have yet to find a suitable location to "plant" Wycombe End into rather than "Pictonville"!

I have however located via a write up of walks in the area on Bing a couple of photos from the west of the rail line across to Bradenham, which are useful in setting the scenic area.

Cheers for now

Paul

[Tallpaul69]

Good Afternoon everyone,

I have found quite a bit about the "Pictonville" houses on the internet, but who "Picton" was evades me. The houses seem to have been built in the 1930s as all appear in the 1939 census in the lead up to the war. Many of the occupants at that time, unsurprisingly, worked in the furniture industry! 

If David, or any one else with knowledge of the High Wycombe area can shed any light on "Pickton", I would be grateful. I am guessing they were either the owner of the land, or the builder. I did wonder if the land had been owned by the railway and if the difficult economic situation in the 1930s prompted them to sell it? 

 

An interesting fact that the census did throw out was that in 1939 one of the residents of Bradenham village was a Foreman Platelayer for the GW&GC Railway!

 

Happy modelling,

Cheers,

Paul

[Nick Gough]

Perhaps there is a connection to Sir Thomas Picton (Lt General) who died at Waterloo?

Not in favour these days because he was a slave owner in the West Indies.

[Tallpaul69]

22 hours ago, Nick Gough said:

Perhaps there is a connection to Sir Thomas Picton (Lt General) who died at Waterloo?

Not in favour these days because he was a slave owner in the West Indies.

Yes, I did wonder about him Nick, however there is the different spelling of Picton and I have yet to find any connection to High Wycombe area! More research called for.

Cheers

Paul

[St Enodoc]

7 minutes ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Yes, I did wonder about him Nick, however there is the different spelling of Picton and I have yet to find any connection to High Wycombe area! More research called for.

Cheers

Paul

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picton,_New_South_Wales

[Tallpaul69]

2 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picton,_New_South_Wales

Thanks John, but I don't think I can shift the scene for my layout to Aus!

I have found that there are a number of Pictons around the ex colonies, particularly Canada as well as Aus.

In the UK, the Pictons as in General Thomas who died at Waterloo, came from West Wales, and there were also places called Picktons (i.e. with the K) near Chester and in Yorkshire.

 

So I have decided (for now, at any rate!) that my layout will just be Bradenham, at least until some more details about Pictonville's origins comes to light! 

I did think of "The West Buckinghamshire Lines of the GW& GC", but decided that was too much of a mouthful.

 

Now on with the timetabling so I can see what is possible to run when my builders get back to me with their proposals.

 

Keep smiling everyone, even if, as currently in south Bedfordshire it is tipping it down!

Paul

 

 

[St Enodoc]

7 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Thanks John, but I don't think I can shift the scene for my layout to Aus!

I have found that there are a number of Pictons around the ex colonies, particularly Canada as well as Aus.

In the UK, the Pictons as in General Thomas who died at Waterloo, came from West Wales, and there were also places called Picktons (i.e. with the K) near Chester and in Yorkshire.

 

So I have decided (for now, at any rate!) that my layout will just be Bradenham, at least until some more details about Pictonville's origins comes to light! 

I did think of "The West Buckinghamshire Lines of the GW& GC", but decided that was too much of a mouthful.

 

Now on with the timetabling so I can see what is possible to run when my builders get back to me with their proposals.

 

Keep smiling everyone, even if, as currently in south Bedfordshire it is tipping it down!

Paul

 

 

Makes sense, Paul. I posted the link because it tells us that our Picton is also named for the same General.

[Nick Gough]

9 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Makes sense, Paul. I posted the link because it tells us that our Picton is also named for the same General.

Also the one in NZ, that I visited in May, where there is some desire to change the name.

[Tallpaul69]

4 hours ago, Nick Gough said:

Also the one in NZ, that I visited in May, where there is some desire to change the name.

I understand that many people want to break the links with slavery, and I don't for one moment condone what went on in that period. There is no doubt that General Picton was, when he was in the West Indies a terrible person. However, if we delete him, we also delete his part in things like Waterloo, which I am certain benefited the whole world. I don't think a world dominated by Napoleon would have been a very nice place, and how would his descendants have dealt with the likes of Keiser William and Hitler? We can't selectively delete the historical record, to suite our views now. History is, what it is!   

 

Anyway, this is all getting far to serious for a hobby discussion!

 

So moving back to my layout, I am considering whether or not to invest in a Rapido Toad. Now I already have a good number of toads, from Airfix, Bachmann, Hornby and Oxford. I need to see whether I can justify a Yeovil labelled one, which I guess in real life didnt travel north of the Paddington -Bristol main line, except maybe, the occasional visit to Oxford?

Alternatively, for the 1992 version of the layout, I could go for either of the departmental versions, although, again, I already have two or three Departmental ones.

 

Decisions! Decisions! (but nice ones)!

Cheers All,

Take care, Paul

[Tallpaul69]

Another rainy day in South Bedfordshire, but hopefully you are all busy modelling?

I am always on the look out for ways to introduce different trains on to Bradenham even if it has to be via an application of Rule1:-

A case in point is the conveyance of chalk for cement making.

In reality this only happened from Greaves sidings between Hadenham and Banbury, but chalk abounds in the Chilterns, and Bradenham is in the middle of the Chilterns!

So I am thinking of making use of the double junction to the south of Bradenham which is redundant without the proposed, but now discarded, set of loops to the North Junction,  If a small extension is possible to board 3 of Bradenham in that area, which is outside the scenic area of the layout, then this could be the location for a set of sidings for the chalk traffic. 

The loaded wagons would run full from these sidings, round Bradenham boards 1 and 2, and back to the sidings they started from. similarly a train of  empty wagons would run in the opposite direction from these sidings, round the layout, and back to these sidings. This train is attractive because it uses high sided hoppers, labelled "CHALK" of which I have several!

The coal and iron ore versions of these wagons  were not seen regularly on other trains on the GW & GC, although my train might have to include a few steel 16 ton mineral wagons I have which are labelled "CHALK". I am not sure if this type were used in the trains from Greaves Sidings. The trains from Greaves Sidings were, I think, powered by Banbury locos, so I can add another loco to Bradenham shed for this traffic!

 

I will have to see what impact on the timetable the extension of the Greaves sidings trains to Bradenham will have?

 

Cheers for now,

Paul

[Nick Gough]

Don't forget Paul, you will have to cover everything in white powder!

 

Greaves' siding, Harbury, 1989/90:

 

 

 

And from the other side, with the cement factory (now a housing estate) behind:

[Tallpaul69]

1 hour ago, Nick Gough said:

Don't forget Paul, you will have to cover everything in white powder!

 

Greaves' siding, Harbury, 1989/90:

 

 

 

And from the other side, with the cement factory (now a housing estate) behind:

That would be true Nick, if I was including the sidings within the scenic area of the layout!

However, if I just run the trains through the scenic area, I think I can get away with just treating the wagons?

That's the plan, anyway!

Cheers

Paul

[Tallpaul69]

Thanks for the pics Nick:-

Any idea what wagons were used in the 1989/90 timeframe of your shots?

I was only going to run the chalk trains in the 1962 version of the layout, but if they still ran in the late 1980s, I can stretch a point (Rule 1!) and run them in the 1992 version of the layout.

As my Lima bogie Yeoman and ARC wagons are out of use, replaced by newer models, I could use them suitably de-labelled and dirtied?

Otherwise, I guess it will have to be Bachmann MKAs again suitably de-labelled and dirtied.

Anyway, food for thought?

Regards

Paul  

[Nick Gough]

I don't remember seeing any wagons when I went there, but I've found this on Flickr:

 

[Nick Gough]

The site closed in 1994, though I don't know whether it was rail served until the end.

 

I remember being on a steam special, from Didcot, in the mid-1980s. The down train stopped and reversed through the crossover, in front of the signal box, onto the up line. The train then ran 'wrong' line, towards Leamington, due to weekend engineering. I bet that wouldn't happen now!

[Tallpaul69]

Hi everyone,

Prompted by info on other threads on RM, I have been invstigating a couple of additional trains for Bradenham. Both these have a rule 1 element, but i think they are reasonable ideas:-

Firstly, the thread about the Newton Chambers car carriers lead me to speculate on the make up of the summer only Dover to Newcastle Tuesday and Thursday evening train, described in the WTT as "Cars and Sleepers", which ran via Kensington and High Wycombe leaving Dover at 9.45 pm swapped engines at Kensington and passed High Wycombe in the early hours of the following morning.

There were return trains leaving Newcastle on Monday and Wednesday evenings.

The WTT suggests that LMR engines were used throughout as it details LE movements to and from Kensington from Cricklewood to effect the loco change.

In my world the trains run late so that they appear later in the mornings as I intend to run my WTT between the hours of 5 am and 10pm. They also run from Dover behind SR locos and change engines at Bradenham. Thus I can have an SR engine sitting on Bradenham shed for a day!  

While the trains will be made up of ER stock (GUVs and Sleepers, they will also have a SR green composite brake coach for a little variety!

 

The second running will be (when mine arrives!) a 15XX loco running LE from OOC to Wolverhampton works. Some of these locos, the tread on them , tells me, were overhauled at Wolverhampton. Another possibility is that the 15xx left Acton on the morning Acton to Banbury pick up good, but as it needed overhaul, by the time it reached Bradenham, it was on its last legs and had to be replaced by the Bradenham shunter!. After recovering it proceeded towards Banbury LE!

 

Are the above scenarios too far fetched?

Well, maybe, but wasn't truth was often stranger than fiction on the steam railway? 

 

Cheers

Paul 

[rob D2]

I’d imagine the greaves trains finished with speedlink in 1991. I’ve seen a three tone grey 37 there in a picture which would fit the period 

[Tallpaul69]

Good evening one and all,

There is a (slight) movement from the layout builders. 

One has suggested that he would prefer to take both Bradenham and Wycombe End to his workshop to have confidence that the alignments off of Wycombe End onto the new link board and off the new link board onto Bradenham work reliably. I have said that that would be ok.

While I thought to have Wycombe End to operate while everything else was being sorted, there is still plenty I can do without either layout.

 

For a start I can use my DCC test track which is located on a desk below Bradenham to test and recode my pile of boxes of chipped locos ready for the installation of the new set up. I also have plenty of Kadees to fit to stock and locos.

Talking of the test track desk, I need to try it in other locations in the room as the current location by the door, while having the advantage of sticking out from under Bradenham, so making its use easier with Bradenham installed, moving it could make access into the room much easier!

There are also some jobs needed in the room such as shortening the curtains, and sorting out cables for some under baseboard lighting that i bought ages ago but have yet to install.

 

So, I will be busy, even without a layout!

Still, mustn't grumble , it should be great in the end. 

 

Cheers for now

Paul 

[Tallpaul69]

Hope, you have all enjoyed todays weather?

After a busy day out and about and in the garden, I have ended the afternoon by doing some timetable planning.

When looking at timetables previously, I tended to look at the busy times, but this time I have taken a different approach:-

 

I have been working out a standard hours timetable which allows some variations and thus can cover the periods from 09.00 to 17.00 (say).

This is based around the hourly expresses from Paddington to Birmingham and varying points on the ex GWR, the ultimate of course being the 10.10 from Paddington, the Cambrian Coast Express!

So for passenger workings we have an hourly Paddington express, an hourly Marylebone suburban to various points beyond High Wycombe, and an hourly combined headway local passenger between Paddington via Maidenhead, or from Maidenhead, to High Wycombe, Princes Risborough, Aylesbury, Banbury , or Oxford.

This last item sounds complicated, but what it means is that at (say) 09.00 at Bradenham a WR local stops which is travelling from Paddington, via Maidenhead, and High Wycombe to Aylesbury. At 10.10, there is no train because this slot is used by a Maidenhead to High Wycombe local, and a Princes Risborough to Banbury Autotrain, so that the High Wycombe to Princes Risborough section sees no train. Other variations fill the later 10 mins past the hour slots.

 

On the goods side, we have a Neasden or Acton to the GCR empty mineral, a alternate hours High Wycombe or Wycombe End to Bradenham inter yard trip, and a Acton or Slough to High Wycombe or Princes Risborough, or Aylesbury, or Oxford pick up freight. These trains, if they continue beyond High Wycombe, then they spend a whole hour in Bradenham Yard. The train in the following hours slot cannot be one that goes beyond High Wycombe, unless it passes non stop through Bradenham.

 

Thus, in each hour we have six paths, three passenger, three freight. The running times cannot of course be evenly spaced due to the differing speeds of the different classes of train. 

 

When I have developed this idea a bit further I might introduce an extra path for (say) a light engine, or an engine and van, or an engineers train, etc. etc.  

 

While the above sounds simple, the complications may set in when I put in the up trains, because they will have to match what the down trains are doing. For instance, when a down freight is spending an hour in Bradenham Yard, it is probable best that up freights pass through, or don't run!

 

This design means that most of the more individual trains such as the parcels and oil trains need to run between 05.00 and 09.00 and after 18.00, which to a large extent they did in real life!.

 

In my next post I aim to put up a sample up and down timetable for one hour.

 

Cheers for now,

Paul

  

[Tallpaul69]

Dear readers,

Due to this family weekend not quite going to plan, I have not yet completed the timetable I promised you in my last posting!

All was going fine, until an hour before we were due to leave for a family meal on Saturday.

Then our eldest son was on the phone  to tell us that their family of four would not be attending as our daughter in law had developed Covid! So as well as their missing the meal, we were two cars out of three missing!

Our younger son has to be commended for filling as much of the gap as he could by doing two 60 mile round trips instead of one to collect and return home those without a car, although it did mean us and the rest of his family spending an extra hour in the restaurant as he dropped us off on the way to do his pickups. Our return was via a taxi, which or youngest granddaughter loved, as she had only previously been in a taxi in an urban setting, so at lowish speed, whereas this involved 5 miles or so on a country road at some speed.

 

Our Daughter in law is not too poorly, we think she may have contracted Covid on the return journey from Spain the weekend before. Luckily no one else in her family caught it, neither did her brother and his family who were on the holiday with them!

 

Meanwhile, I have some encouraging news, on the model railway front.

One of the builders I had been discussing the upgrade of my layout with, emailed me on Sunday to say he hoped to get a proposal to me over the bank Holiday weekend and that due to him being messed around by a client who was in the queue before me for workshop time, subject to us agreeing his proposal and the costs,  he expected to be able to do my project before Christmas rather than after.

 

I do know that I will have a bit more preparatory work to do than I expected, as he has decided it would be better for him to have both Bradenham and Wycombe End in his workshop to ensure that the new linking baseboard tracks connect correctly to the existing tracks on both layouts. So I have the "storage" under Wycombe End to move, as well as that under Bradenham. But I do want to ensure everything links and works correctly.

 

Maybe, I will get the timetable done for next week, depending on when I get the proposal and how much work I need to do checking and evaluating it. If it is necessary to have a fair bit of backwards and forwards between the pair of us, then the timetable will have to wait!

 

Happy Modelling,

Cheers for now,

Paul