jamespetts Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 I have been having a spot of bother with varnish to-day. I had re-numbered some Dapol N gauge class 50s (and some Farish class 47s) a while ago, but had not until to-day applied the final coat of matt varnish to seal in the transfers and hide the shiny areas caused by the Brasso that I used to remove the original names and numbers. I have done this in the past with good effect, but, this afternoon/evening, it seems not to have worked well: the shinyness from the Brasso number removal shows through the varnish on all the models. I use Games Workshop Citadel Munitorium varnish (aerosol can with a Bench Vent), which I have used before (although I am not sure whether this is the very can that I have used before: there are two cans in my flammable liquids cabinet and I have not done any varnishing for at least a year). Here are some pictures of the locomotives after varnishing at the angle to show the shine showing through: Dapol class 50 by James Petts, on Flickr Dapol class 50 by James Petts, on Flickr Farish calss 47 by James Petts, on Flickr Dapol class 50 by James Petts, on Flickr Might I be doing something wrong - or have I just not used enough? Or should I really be using another type of varnish? Assistance would be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNWR18901910 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 The varnish I used on my models is the brush-on type. That was when I was getting back into the spirit of model railways in my teenage years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamespetts Posted February 17, 2020 Author Share Posted February 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, LNWR18901910 said: The varnish I used on my models is the brush-on type. That was when I was getting back into the spirit of model railways in my teenage years. I did consider using brush-on varnish, but this does not give an even enough finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNWR18901910 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 Well, maybe not, but I prefer brush-on methods rather than spray methods as you will need ventilation and it can be rather messy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamespetts Posted February 17, 2020 Author Share Posted February 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, LNWR18901910 said: Well, maybe not, but I prefer brush-on methods rather than spray methods as you will need ventilation and it can be rather messy. Yes - I do have a BenchVent and a non-porous table cloth for the purpose; this takes a long time to set up, so I try to varnish and spray paint in large batches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNWR18901910 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 I've had experience in spray painting - long story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Darius43 Posted February 17, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 17, 2020 I think the problem is that the difference in surface texture - really shiny and less shiny - shows up even with the matt varnish coat. I find that sealing in the decals with a couple of coats of Johnsons Klear floor polish (now called Pledge with Future Shine I think) gives an all over even finish to which the matt coat can then be applied. The Klear polish/varnish can be found on eBay amongst other places. Cheers Darius 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PaulCheffus Posted February 17, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 17, 2020 11 hours ago, jamespetts said: Might I be doing something wrong - or have I just not used enough? Or should I really be using another type of varnish? Assistance would be appreciated. Hi Do you have an airbrush? If so try the Vallejo matt varnish as I've found it dries very matt and will cover gloss patches better than other varnishes. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vallejo-Model-Color-17ml-Varnish/dp/B000PH9JPA/ref=sr_1_4?crid=35NSC1TR8ZW76&keywords=vallejo+matt+acrylic+varnish&qid=1581936601&sprefix=vallejo+matt%2Caps%2C245&sr=8-4 Other suppliers are available. Cheers Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamespetts Posted February 17, 2020 Author Share Posted February 17, 2020 Thank you all for your thoughts. I do not have an airbrush. Given that I have already varnished all of these locomotives, what options are there left - might applying a second coat of the Citadel varnish assist, or would this result in too thick a coat of varnish? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Half-full Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 7 hours ago, jamespetts said: Thank you all for your thoughts. I do not have an airbrush. Given that I have already varnished all of these locomotives, what options are there left - might applying a second coat of the Citadel varnish assist, or would this result in too thick a coat of varnish? I would give the models a thin coat of gloss to even the surfaces out, then spray the matt (or satin) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 (edited) I have stopped using Citadel varnish as the formula has changed and it was drying with a patchy white finish. If you cans are a gold colour that maybe the problem. Mine were binned. I presume you want a matt finish , if yes try Testors Aerosol Matt varnish, it may need a couple of thin coats to get rid of the gloss patches. Its the best matt varnish I have ever used. Be aware that it has a strong odour when used. Always test on a small area in case there is any reaction between the varnishes first. Edited February 17, 2020 by micklner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamespetts Posted February 17, 2020 Author Share Posted February 17, 2020 Thank you both for your replies. I had no problems with white patches, just the lack of removal of gloss. I will have a go with another coat of my existing varnish, as it has been remarked that multiple coats may be necessary to remove the shine, but I have also ordered some Testors as advised. I have a Bench Vent and a face mask (the proper one that looks rather like a gas mask), so the odour will hopefully not be a problem. Half-full - if I were to re-coat with gloss, would a brush finish of gloss suffice, or would this also need to be sprayed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Half-full Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 3 hours ago, jamespetts said: Half-full - if I were to re-coat with gloss, would a brush finish of gloss suffice, or would this also need to be sprayed? Best to spray it for a smooth, even, thin finish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Corbs Posted February 18, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 18, 2020 I've been using Tamiya Matt varnish (aerosol) with good results recently, when I couldn't get hold of any Dullcote. Much faster and better results than brush-on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erichill16 Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Corbs said: I've been using Tamiya Matt varnish (aerosol) with good results recently, when I couldn't get hold of any Dullcote. Much faster and better results than brush-on. Never used Dullcote as always been happy with all Tamiya sprays. My first choice if they have the appropriate colour. happy spraying, Robert Edited February 18, 2020 by Erichill16 TYpo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PaulCheffus Posted February 18, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 18, 2020 27 minutes ago, Corbs said: I've been using Tamiya Matt varnish (aerosol) with good results recently, when I couldn't get hold of any Dullcote. Much faster and better results than brush-on. Hi I've had similar issues to the OP using Dullcote over patches of gloss. Cheers Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westernviscount Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 Sounds like good advice above. Avoid brush varnishing especially gloss!! I would always recommend humbrol acrylic matt varnish spray, sprayed in warm, dry conditions as never had problems with it. Good luck!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 I have started using Testors’ Clear Coat and it is an excellent product. Comes in a small aerosol and the cheapest place to buy it is Antics online (I am using it on N gauge models as well). Also, another tip given to me - place the cans in the airing cupboard for an hour or so before use. Hope this helps. Paddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWR-fan Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 I gave up using Dullcote about thirty years ago. I had previously used it with good effect until one day I believe that the humidity was too high and the end result of two days of painstaking lining was a milky cloudy finish. From reading I believe that Testors used talcum powder in Dullcote and the powder absorbs moisture on humid days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 5 minutes ago, GWR-fan said: I gave up using Dullcote about thirty years ago. I had previously used it with good effect until one day I believe that the humidity was too high and the end result of two days of painstaking lining was a milky cloudy finish. From reading I believe that Testors used talcum powder in Dullcote and the powder absorbs moisture on humid days. I believe the formula was changed a while ago. Never ever had a problem with it, but as with any product check on a small area before use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 All I can say is that the cans I have purchased (last year or so) have been fine. Maybe I have just been lucky. Paddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWR-fan Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 3 minutes ago, micklner said: I believe the formula was changed a while ago. Never ever had a problem with it, but as with any product check on a small area before use. Thankyou. A case of once bitten ........ I moved on to using Tamiya clear spray but the small can size proved too expensive, especially when spraying Gauge 1 and "G" scale sized models. My latest preferred spray is Wattyl Estapol polyurethane clear in either satin or matte finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Corbs Posted February 18, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 18, 2020 2 hours ago, GWR-fan said: I gave up using Dullcote about thirty years ago. I had previously used it with good effect until one day I believe that the humidity was too high and the end result of two days of painstaking lining was a milky cloudy finish. From reading I believe that Testors used talcum powder in Dullcote and the powder absorbs moisture on humid days. I get this occasionally. Sometimes it can be fixed by spraying it with lacquer again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamespetts Posted February 24, 2020 Author Share Posted February 24, 2020 (edited) I recalled that I had previously had this issue which I had remedied by re-coating. I re-coated all of the locomotives with a second coat of varnish, with somewhat complex mixed results. The Farish 47s seem to have done well with the second coat, and both are now an acceptable finish: The London STANDARD by James Petts, on Flickr County of Hertfordshire by James Petts, on Flickr The class 50s are a little more mixed. Two of them still had significant shiny patches after the second coat: Glorious by James Petts, on Flickr Ajax by James Petts, on Flickr However, the more varnish that I apply, the more that I get a mottled finish: Victorious by James Petts, on Flickr Oddly, the finish on the other side of the locomotive was much better: Victorious by James Petts, on Flickr This, I think, was a locomotive on which I had been concerned that I had sprayed too much varnish (or, rather, sprayed it too close). After a problem with a Farish 47 when I first started doing this where spraying too close caused white blooming and damaged the numbers, I have been very careful to spray a good distance (20-30cm) from the model, but I wonder whether this is causing the droplets of varnish to be larger by the time that they reach the model, or perhaps more uneven? The two pictured above I have set aside for a final coat, but the others I consider complete - there are one or two borderline cases, but the shine on the others is as good as gone. So, the ultimate conclusion is that, with the Citadel varnish, it is possible to get a good result, but under somewhat unpredictable conditions, and the chances of ruining the model seem to be potentially excessive: the boundary between not enough to cover the shine and enough to cause white blooming/a mottled look/possible transfer damage seems to be very narrow. I did order a can of Testor's Dullcoat, but unfortunately I seem to have been sent Clearcoat instead, which I assume is a gloss varnish. I will keep this rather than sending it back as it might be useful one day. Do people think that it is worth sending for real Dullcoat from another vendor, or are there better varnishes for future projects? Edit: I have just re-sprayed the two that still had the shiny patches, spraying more closely at circa 10-20cm on this occasion. This seems to have improved things greatly: there are no more shiny patches, and the mottled/grainy look seems to have gone. I will post pictures later in the week when I have had a chance to remove all the Maskol. Edited February 24, 2020 by jamespetts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamespetts Posted February 26, 2020 Author Share Posted February 26, 2020 I think that I have managed to fix this with these locomotives: Varnished class 50s by James Petts, on Flickr 50033 by James Petts, on Flickr 500046 by James Petts, on Flickr The problem was, I think, that I was spraying from too far away. Further coats from a closer distance seem to have helped. I have read elsewhere on this forum that spraying this varnish from too far away can cause it to get cold and dry before touching the model, which would explain poor coating and the mottled effect, as well as a powdery effect that I had been getting in some cases. Spraying a little closer at 10-20cm instead of 20-30cm (very approximately) seems to have helped considerably. However, that is concerningly close to the distance where the spray is too close, which can cause damage to the decals and sometimes even paintwork. I am considering trying the Railmatch varnish instead. In the meantime, may I ask how others who use aerosol varnish manage with spraying distance? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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