Hornby B1 class

[spikey]

 Am I correct in thinking that the only Hornby B1 available with the same mechanicals as R3451 "Stembok" is R3338 "61310" in BR green?

[Hilux5972]

2 hours ago, spikey said:

 Am I correct in thinking that the only Hornby B1 available with the same mechanicals as R3451 "Stembok" is R3338 "61310" in BR green?

It’s Probably the only other one available new yes. 

[Hilux5972]

There are these 2 as well. There will be others but I don’t have my catalogues to hand. 

[spikey]

Ahah!  So those are the same mechanicals as the current ones then?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

1 hour ago, spikey said:

Ahah!  So those are the same mechanicals as the current ones then?

I believe so, visually all alike. I obtained a well discounted R3338 as my spare parts 'breaker' for my earlier examples which are all properly black, grubby and rusty 'bleedin Bongos', that do the work on the layout. (Experience tells me that if you have spares, then you never need them.)

[A Murphy]

I think that Sir Harold Mitchell has a dynamo or generator on the right side forward running board and replica (not working) electric lighting. Stembok does not - the different issues may feature this difference, not sure if there are others as well?

 

Alastair M

Edited February 28, 2020 by A Murphy

[Bernard Lamb]

1 hour ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

I believe so, visually all alike. 

I thought they did a Scottish one.

Bernard

[robmcg]

51 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I thought they did a Scottish one.

Bernard

YES...

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

2 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I thought they did a Scottish one.

Yes, but whatever the bodyshell variations, I believe it has the same mechanism within. My response was specific to the question:

4 hours ago, spikey said:

So those are the same mechanicals as the current ones then?

 

Edited February 28, 2020 by 34theletterbetweenB&D

[Bernard Lamb]

10 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Yes, but whatever the bodyshell variations, I believe it has the same mechanism within. My response was specific to the question:

 

Then why put "visually" when you mean "mechanically"?

Bernard

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

1 hour ago, Bernard Lamb said:

Then why put "visually" when you mean "mechanically"?

Because the mechanisms are visually the same when compared. I haven't tested in detail that all parts are identical or at least sufficiently compatible to be fully interchangeable; and past experiences suggest that manufacturers do alter mechanism constructions without notice, so that was in my opinion a necessary qualification.

 

They will all fit 'complete', interchangeably among the body shells I have, which is probably what is of primary interest.

[robmcg]

Another question regarding the Hornby B1. Please note all my pictures are edited and I will remove them if required.

 

Does anyone know where the detail variations on the 7 or 8 versions of this model might be seen and compared?  

 

My impression from looking at photos of recent R3451  61032 'Stembok' is that it is not quite as well-made as earlier versions, slight bends in running plate and boiler pipework. Reduced prices

 

Also some models have different smokebox fronts?  I have 2011 model R2998 1040 LNER 'Roedeer' and R3000 61243 'Sir Harold Mitchell', also early BR 61310 in BR Light Green...  and am keen to buy another BR black version but are there any traps and details I should look out for?

 

I used to have R2999 61138 BR shown below  but sold it, now I am in the mood to buy. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

and this last re-numbered,

 

 

I think there might be a definitive selection of Irwell books on B1s but I don't have them....  how remiss of me!  

 

 

Edited June 7, 2020 by robmcg
added pictures

[robmcg]

A further question; were R3114 (61270) and 3114A (61267) made in any numbers?   They seem very rare, BR black late crest electric lights etc. 

 

here is Rails' pic of 61267

 

 

Current 61032 appears very similar to the original 61038...

 

 

It looks like the easiest option currently, I am rather surprised by the lack of these models in new or as new condition on Ebay etc, or maybe I haven't looked hard enough.

 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by robmcg
typo

[PJT]

On 06/06/2020 at 22:45, robmcg said:

I think there might be a definitive selection of Irwell books on B1s but I don't have them....  how remiss of me!  

 

Robbie,

 

Tony Wright has mentioned once or twice in Wright Writes that he's working on 'The Book of The B1s' for Irwell Press.  I have a feeling he's not long started and since it's by all accounts a very complicated subject it may be a while before we get our hands on it.  When it arrives I reckon we'll have to form an orderly queue - there's a lot of B1 fans out there who'd love to see a good publication that unravels the complications, including you and me.

 

2 hours ago, robmcg said:

A further question; were R3114 (61270) and 3114A (61267) get made in any numbers?   They seem very rare, BR black late crest electric lights etc. 

 

I don't know how many were made but you're right, they do seem to come up for sale far fewer times than most of the other Hornby B1s.  Pity, because for those of us who like to mix and match the details to create particular locos 61270 and 61267 have quite a few very useful features, one of which being the electric lighting you mentioned and another being a tender with the shorter coal space.

 

You know I'm a fan of the Hornby B1, though I'll also readily admit the Bachmann one, even though the body tooling is very old and a little on the crude side by current standards, still scrubs up well with a bit of detailing (and it has a tender variant that Hornby don't yet do).  Once again Hornby has commendably created a suite of tools and tooling inserts that provide for many different B1 locos and combinations of features, though they don't actually cover anywhere near all the possibilities (which, looking at it a positive way, gives us more very satisfying little modelling projects to do).  As an example, how many styles of smokebox door did the B1s have?  I think I'm right in saying Hornby have tooled for a couple, but to my knowledge (and I'm no authority on B1s, just an examiner of photos of locos I want to create) there's at least three others and of course some locos had different smokebox doors at different times in their lives.

 

Tony Wright has his work cut out!  He did intimate that 'The Book of The B1s'  might run to more than one volume, but I can't remember if that was just a quip or a genuine possibility.

 

Pete T.

 

[31A]

The model of 61270 that I've got had an error, in that the horizontal conduit (or pipe) that is present on locos with electric lighting on the fireman's side running below the handrail from the cab to the generator is correctly modelled on the boiler side but finishes abruptly where it meets the smokebox, instead of continuing to the generator on the running plate.  I reinstated it using thin copper wire glued to the side of the smokebox.  Also missing was the conduit that runs from the generator vertically just behind the smokebox front to the lamp on top of the smokebox; I also added this using  thin copper wire. My picture below shows the model after I'd done this (and weathered it):

 

 

I have seen at least one other example of this model that has the same error; it's as if the wrong tool has been used for the smokebox on this model.  The other two that I've got are models of locos without electric lighting, so I don't know whether this error is also present on others that they've done with electric lighting, or whether the conduit to the top lamp is present on other models, although it is there on the L1, for example.

 

[PJT]

50 minutes ago, 31A said:

The model of 61270 that I've got had an error, in that the horizontal conduit (or pipe) that is present on locos with electric lighting on the fireman's side running below the handrail from the cab to the generator is correctly modelled on the boiler side but finishes abruptly where it meets the smokebox, instead of continuing to the generator on the running plate.  I reinstated it using thin copper wire glued to the side of the smokebox.  Also missing was the conduit that runs from the generator vertically just behind the smokebox front to the lamp on top of the smokebox; I also added this using  thin copper wire. My picture below shows the model after I'd done this (and weathered it):

 

 

I have seen at least one other example of this model that has the same error; it's as if the wrong tool has been used for the smokebox on this model.  The other two that I've got are models of locos without electric lighting, so I don't know whether this error is also present on others that they've done with electric lighting, or whether the conduit to the top lamp is present on other models, although it is there on the L1, for example.

 

Well, having just looked upstairs I can confirm that neither my Hornby 61267 nor 61243 have the conduits on the smokebox either, so it seems Hornby missed the conduits (unlikely, given some of the other details they've tooled up for) or they made a conscious decision not to include them.  It looks a little wierd having the apparatus without a representation of the wiring connecting it (apart from a lonely conduit run to nowhere on the boiler side), but I guess it will have kept the tooling cost for the smokebox down a bit.  I agree, it's a bit odd considering they went the extra mile with conduit on the L1 models; I wonder if the miriad of alternatives Hornby allowed for on the B1 had already eaten up the budget and creating two smokebox tooling inserts was a step too far?  Whichever, it gives me another satisfying little project to do, thank you!

 

Just to add, I love your weathering and finish in the photo - it's certainly got that elusive 'paint on steel' effect on the boiler side.

 

Pete T.

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by PJT
Added bit about smokebox tooling inserts.

[31A]

2 minutes ago, PJT said:

 

Well, having just looked upstairs I can confirm that neither my Hornby 61267 nor 61243 have the conduits on the smokebox either, so it seems Hornby missed the conduits (unlikely, given some of the other details they've tooled up for) or they made a conscious decision not to include them.  It looks a little wierd having the apparatus without a representation of the wiring connecting it (apart from a lonely conduit run to nowhere on the boiler side), but I guess it will have kept the tooling cost for the smokebox down a bit.  I agree, it's a bit odd considering they went the extra mile with conduit on the L1 models; I wonder if the miriad of alternatives Hornby allowed for on the B1 had already eaten up the budget?  Whichever, it gives me another satisfying little project to do, thank you!

 

Just to add, I love your weathering and finish in the photo - it's certainly got that elusive 'paint on steel' effect on the boiler side.

 

Pete T.

 

 

Thank you, that's interesting to know and bear in mind if I decide to buy any more!  Makes you wonder why they'd go to the bother of showing the conduit on the boiler side but not the smokebox though - the conduit on the boiler side is absent on the non generator fitted models.  I was a bit dubious of adding the missing bits; just thought I'd end up with a mess of glue on the smokebox side but used thin cyano and it worked out OK.

 

Thanks for the comments re the weathering, I think basically I painted the 'cleaned' bits (boiler, tender, cab sides) with Johnson's Klear polish then went over the whole lot with my usual 'grot', then washed most of it away from the 'cleaned' bits.

 

[PJT]

 

14 minutes ago, 31A said:

Makes you wonder why they'd go to the bother of showing the conduit on the boiler side but not the smokebox though - the conduit on the boiler side is absent on the non generator fitted models.

 

I must admit, reading your comment and the more I think about it the less logic I can see in omitting the smokebox conduits.  Maybe I gave Hornby too much benefit of the doubt; maybe it was just a mistake after all.

 

6 minutes ago, 31A said:

Thanks for the comments re the weathering, I think basically I painted the 'cleaned' bits (boiler, tender, cab sides) with Johnson's Klear polish then went over the whole lot with my usual 'grot', then washed most of it away from the 'cleaned' bits.

 

Ah, I wondered if Klear was involved.  It works like nothing else for that 'slightly work-weary sheen', doesn't it?  That's not to detract at all from your skills; you did a really nicely observed job in leaving the right amount of grot in the right places.

 

Pete T.

[31A]

Interesting, Pete.  Not wishing to argue, but it does look as though some at least of the 61243 models have the conduit present on the smokebox - it can be seen on this picture on Olivia's Trains web site, beneath the nameplate, and the one running up to the top lamp:

 

https://www.oliviastrains.com/trains/mt/Hornby-steam/Hornby-steam-b1-class/Hornby-b1-class-61243-sir-harold-mitchell-in-br-black-late-crest-livery-r3000/#gallery-2

 

So it looks as though they got it right sometimes!

 

On a different matter, on my 61270 the pipe on the other side of the boiler (which is a separate moulding) is very wiggly!  I don't think it was like that when I got it otherwise I'd have noticed when I was doing the weathering, and it isn't like that on the other two I've got. I've tried straightening it but it doesn't want to stay straight, I'll have to replace it with a piece of brass when I get round to it.

 

Thanks again re. the weathering; one of my others is a lot more filthy than that!

 

[PJT]

48 minutes ago, 31A said:

Interesting, Pete.  Not wishing to argue, but it does look as though some at least of the 61243 models have the conduit present on the smokebox - it can be seen on this picture on Olivia's Trains web site, beneath the nameplate, and the one running up to the top lamp:

 

https://www.oliviastrains.com/trains/mt/Hornby-steam/Hornby-steam-b1-class/Hornby-b1-class-61243-sir-harold-mitchell-in-br-black-late-crest-livery-r3000/#gallery-2

 

So it looks as though they got it right sometimes!

 

Just been upstairs and checked 61243 again and you're quite right.  The drawer it sits in isn't in the best light so the conduits must have disappeared into the blackness of the smokebox when I looked this morning, but this time I tried feeling with my finger and, lo and behold,  I could feel the one to the top lamp.  I got the loco out to have a good look and, sure enough, all conduits are present and correct on 61243.  Not so on 61267 though, which I checked again, too: just the same as 61270, its missing the conduits both on the smokebox side and running up to the top lamp.

 

Well, that's one less I've got to make up some conduit for.  Full marks for looking a bit harder than I did!  Despite sometime-missing conduits and things like the dome and chimney shape being a bit contentious on some of them (but much better on others), I think we're still all agreed the Hornby B1's a truly lovely model, though. 

 

Pete T.

 

[31A]

1 hour ago, PJT said:

 

Just been upstairs and checked 61243 again and you're quite right.  The drawer it sits in isn't in the best light so the conduits must have disappeared into the blackness of the smokebox when I looked this morning, but this time I tried feeling with my finger and, lo and behold,  I could feel the one to the top lamp.  I got the loco out to have a good look and, sure enough, all conduits are present and correct on 61243.  Not so on 61267 though, which I checked again, too: just the same as 61270, its missing the conduits both on the smokebox side and running up to the top lamp.

 

Well, that's one less I've got to make up some conduit for.  Full marks for looking a bit harder than I did!  Despite sometime-missing conduits and things like the dome and chimney shape being a bit contentious on some of them (but much better on others), I think we're still all agreed the Hornby B1's a truly lovely model, though. 

 

Pete T.

 

 

I agree, it is a lovely model!  I wouldn't mind having a few more, if I could afford them!

 

[robmcg]

It is indeed lovely, and I have a weathered 61243 which I bought already weathered,  I may have posted this pic before but it certainly shows excellence in RTR manufacturing.

 

 

I shall keep my eyes peeled for a pristine 61243, 61267 or 61270 from the UK which can take 10 weeks or more   or buy a locally available 61038 for some instant gratification.

 

I dimly recall the toboldlygo who does briliant weathering and detailing had a B1 for sale a couple of years ago but I was't in a B1 mood at the time, opportunity lost!

 

Cheers and thanks for the replies.

 

[robmcg]

Had a chance this morning to dig deeper into my stored engines and found this weathered 61138 which runs sweetly and I actually cannot remember buying it!   Shame on me!

 

Also discovered that my 61334 is in fact a 61243 with photo-edited changes, 

 

so the 'bleedin' Bongo'  of the day is this one.

 

 

There was no detail pack with it so I shall open other boxes or even look at Peters Spares. I looks rather bare around the front without details. I do like the orientation of the valve gear being correct.

 

Also bought Yeadon's Register vol.6 B1 class today via Amazon so might see that some day. £13. Sent to an agent in the UK who will post on to me in NZ. No idea how good it is but should be good reading and reference.

 

Edit; I have noticed that all the recent B1s from Hornby have valve gear with wrong geometry, mostly, which for no particular reason has always irked me, so just now I bought a pristine R3000 61243 with electric lights and looks right, in the absence of any 61270 or 61267 or even 61138 pristine models. So I've burned that particular bridge for the moment! Paid UKP79. Ebay.

 

  

Edited June 9, 2020 by robmcg
added comment