Cooper Craft Outside Frame Monster: Help/Info Needed

[iL Dottore]

First off, I must say that I did do a search of RMWeb to find something about this kit, but unfortunately I didn’t turn up anything (that’s not to say that there isn’t anything on on RMWeb, but I didn’t find it).

For some obscure reason, many many years ago I bought two of these Cooper Craft kits and have decided, given that I am incarcerated in Schloss iD because of the COVID-19 situation, to finally make one of them.

So far, so good. I am fairly pleased with the model: the side and the end mouldings are quite lovely, less so the fit and the bogies.

And now comes my first question: having assembled the bogies I did a trial assembly and found that I will need a washer between the floor of the carriage and the bogies in order to get the bogies to sit in the right position. Of course, such a washer is not provided in the kit. Can anyone tell me how thick these washers should be? I may have a suitably thick washer in my box of bits, if not I will make them from scratch using offcuts of plastic card laminated together, shaped and drilled out.

My second question concerns whether or not these vehicles were unfitted or had vacuum brakes. Although I do have the relevant reference books on GWR rolling stock, they are currently buried behind a pile of Mrs iD’s woodworking materials in my workshop and thus completely inaccessible for the foreseeable future (Hence the questions).

Thirdly, am I right in assuming that these outside frame monsters had screw link couplings? (Again, I asked this question because my reference books are inaccessible at present).

Fnally, I have to say that although a little gem in many ways, this particular kit is  - in totality - not one of Cooper Craft’s best kits: poor instructions and poorly fitting sides and floor (not to mention the relatively poor quality of the under frame fittings). Given that I can only really justify one outside frame monster on my layout (and I am pushing verisimilitude at that), I will swap the second kit that I have for something else with someone who may want to give it a good home (PM me if you’re interested).

In advance, thanks for taking time to help me out

iD

[petethemole]

Monsters were NPCCS (Brown Stock), so were vacuum braked.

[Nick Gough]

According to the diagram in 'Russell', part 2, the bottom of the solebar is 3' 1 3/4" above rail level and buffer centres at 3' 6". Photos in Appendix, Volume two, shew them fitted with vacuum and steam heat pipes and screw couplings.

[Siberian Snooper]

You can get away with the buffer centre being a fraction lower as a  loaded vehicle will sit down a bit on its springs.

 

 

[Miss Prism]

For anyone building rolling stock from kits, a buffer height setter/jig is a basic essential tool in my view. For 4mm scale, a setting of 13.8 to 14mm is a good objective. Suitable packing (bits of plasticard) can be inserted between bogie and underframe to achieve this. If you using sprung bogies, the procedure might be a bit more involved, but you won't need to be reading this anyway.

 

Screw couplings, yes.

 

Concerning the provenance of these kits, strictly speaking they are of 'Mailcoach' origin, rather than Cooper-Craft. I believe Tony Brown took over the Mailcoach offerings in the early days of his running CC (i.e. pre-2000), but I'm not sure who did the Mailcoach tools, unless it was some sort of Kirk spinoff venture.

 

[Compound2632]

"Outside frame monster". Don't you just love the Great Western?

[iL Dottore]

My thanks to all for your replies, most helpful and greatly appreciated (who needs reference books when there is the extensive knowledge of RMWeb to draw upon? )

 

I’ll rummage through my box of bits for vacuum pipes, screw link couplings and the like. And I’ll cobble together a gauge to check ride height, However, and I know I am being obtuse here, but I am still at a loss as to how thick the washer/packing between the floor of the model and the bogies should be. If anyone has had experience of building one of these kits, I’d love to know how they built it.

 

Again, my thanks to all for taking the trouble to help me out.

iD

[Il Grifone]

Plenty of info here, including a drawing (less dimensions unfortunately):

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&ei=bd6KXrb9DtLBgQaB66ewDg&q=GWR+MONSTER&oq=GWR+MONSTER&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQDDICCAAyAggAMgYIABAWEB4yBggAEBYQHjoECAAQQzoECAAQCkotCBcSKTBnMTU1ZzE0M2cxMjdnMTM4ZzExN2cxMDhnMTA5ZzExMWcxMjBnMTQ2ShkIGBIVMGcxZzFnMWcxZzFnMWcxZzFnMWczUIHCDFjU6Axg64MNaAFwAHgAgAGPAYgB-wqSAQQxLjExmAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpeg&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwj259nDp9PoAhXSYMAKHYH1CeYQ4dUDCAs

 

In situations like this I resort to trial and error - 10 thou. at a time. It's a long time since I built a Cooper-Craft kit, but I don't recall requiring washers between bogies and bolsters, or rather bolster, as I almost always build bogie vehicles with three point suspension. One bogie rocks (fore and aft) on two points (these can be screws for fine adjustment) and the other is free to rock in all planes*. Springing would be better, but life is too short to adjust all the variables to make it work properly.

 

* I'm currently trying to sort my collection of American freight and passenger cars some of them (Athearn (principally, but not exclusively) rock alarmingly) ....

Edited April 6, 2020 by Il Grifone

[81E]

Good Morning,

 

I believe that this kit may have originally been made by Ian Kirk many years ago and Cooper Craft acquired the tooling which might explain the difference in quality you describe. However still a nice kit to build. I seem to recall reading that the GWR did have two.

 

These vehicles were "Brown Vehicles" ie. they were designed to be run in passenger trains at express passenger speeds so would have been Vacuum fitted like the GWR Siphons. Indeed I run my one in a rake of Hornby/Airfix Siphon Gs. If marshalled in a passenger train it was usual practise to place them next to the locomotive.  I believe that this was to give some protection the passengers in the coaches in the event of an accident.

 

Sadly I cannot quite see the washers I fitted to mine However, I am almost certain I used M4 bolts. Sadly these need an Allen key to undo them which I have lost so I cannot take one off to look. however, peering through the gap there looks to be two M4 washers - I think I used trial and error to get the height about right. Also I think the bogie is designed to use 12mm wheels rather than 14mm to get the coupling height right.

 

Hope this is helpful.

[Fat Controller]

The Ian Kirk kit was originally for the inside-framed version, some of which were built by BR, I believe. The tooling was then modified to make the outside- framed version.

[Bluemonkey presents....]

Morning All. I have recently built an outside frame kit, ref MC05, a Mailcoach kit I think. It is about half way down on page one of my work bench thread. Not much in the way of discussion regarding the build as generally straight as the kit instructs directed.

I replaced the bodies with a white metal pair I had as my kit did not appear to be complete.

The ride height seemed ok for me without the need for additional washers. Before final fixing I checked buffer heights against a number of other wagons to ensure correct height for my stock.

 

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, 81E said:

... I think the bogie is designed to use 12mm wheels rather than 14mm to get the coupling height right.

 

Hope this is helpful.

 

If the body is sitting low and needs (a) washer(s) to raise the buffer height, it suggests that it was designed for correct 14mm. dia. wheels, rather than 12mm. dia. wagon wheels.

 

John Isherwood.

Edited April 6, 2020 by cctransuk

[lofty1966]

Definitely runs on 14mm wheels.

Didn't use a washer on mine.

 

[iL Dottore]

In regards to fitting bogies to the floor, I just realised that I have been a complete pillock: I actually managed to cement the floor in place on the sides but too high (although, in my defence, I must say the Cooper Craft instructions weren’t that good). Which meant that the bogies were actually positioned behind and between the solebars...

This has now been remedied and I’ll require just a thin washer for the bogies sit properly (I wasn’t able to perfectly correct the error).

Again my thanks to all for your help.

iD

[Bluemonkey presents....]

Definitely 14mm Mansell wheels.

[81E]

My reason for using the 12 mm wheels was that the Triang type couplings seemed to  be fractionally too high with 14 mm wheels  to couple up reliably. Fitting the small er wheels solved the problem instantly. Although there problems might lie with the Airfix Siphons

[cctransuk]

15 minutes ago, 81E said:

My reason for using the 12 mm wheels was that the Triang type couplings seemed to  be fractionally too high with 14 mm wheels  to couple up reliably. Fitting the small er wheels solved the problem instantly. Although there problems might lie with the Airfix Siphons

 

Surely it is easy enough to lower the couplings by 1mm.? A piece of 1mm. thick plastic card packing?

 

John Isherwood.

[81E]

@cctransuk

 

In hindsight fitting a plastic shim would seem an answer but the molded coupling mount with pips seemed to be too good to be true and I didn't think there would be a problem.

 

Sadly as I did not want to damage the assembled bogie, I had already permanently fitted the couplings by practically riveting them to the mount before I fitted the sides!