Dongits Model Railway -- Three layers around the Study

[Bloodnok]

Update: Madman with glue stick makes very large sheet of paper. More at 10.

[Bloodnok]

Giant sheet of paper turned into long, thin ribbons. Enough roadbed being glued down to get to the start of the through station and engineers yard, plus a bit up the incline to the terminus.

 

I am slowly working my way out of dependency hell. I couldn't lay track across the bridge until I could glue this down, which couldn't be done until the height of the piers on the incline could be determined, which couldn't be done until the exact height of the terminus was determined.

Time to do some more CAD and finish the rest of the verticals.

[5BarVT]

25 minutes ago, Bloodnok said:

I am slowly working my way out of dependency hell. I couldn't lay track across the bridge until I could glue this down, which couldn't be done until the height of the piers on the incline could be determined, which couldn't be done until the exact height of the terminus was determined.

I feel your pain.  I’m doing gradients for the first time and experiencing exactly that effect.

Paul.

[Bloodnok]

1 hour ago, 5BarVT said:

I feel your pain.  I’m doing gradients for the first time and experiencing exactly that effect.

Paul.

Yeah. The key is that you want a dead smooth, consistent gradient. That requires knowing *exactly* what the elevation to climb is, and what the distance between the two points are. And as I've found out with this room, there can very easily be a difference small enough you can't see it at first glance, but big enough that it'll catch you out if you just build to the square, flat plan without checking it against reality. I did have to revise the plan elevation difference between the two levels when I built that first CAD riser, as my planning didn't line up with what I needed to build to accommodate the filing cabinet, and that did change the height I needed on the risers. It was worth doing it properly, not just winging it.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Bloodnok

[Bloodnok]

Roadbed glued down, plan back in place:

 

I couldn't resist dropping a few of the track pieces down to set out the junction:

 

I'm currently trying to talk myself into having a go at building the left hand curved diamond (currently placeholdered by the up-side-down right-handed one), rather than heading off to Marcway and asking them to build one for me.

[Bloodnok]

That moment your cat judges you for taking up too much space in the lounge...
 

[lmsforever]

Lets face it we are only building  layouts to provide  places for our cats to sleep ,a long time back a rather large black and white beasty who told us how to look after him assisted with shunting. Sitting on a window sill a paw would come down and lift a wagon when needed followed by a very satisfied look at me  ,the layout is comming on very well.

[Bloodnok]

I've been busy today. We have the final wall sections in place, and another of the ply supports.

 

The CAD template for the next one is done too, but the light has gone away outside, so I can't go cut it out yet.

The triangular brace in the corner will support the track on approach to the station throat.
 

 

If you are wondering why the flat cutout on the south wall, there will be a turntable right in the corner. The east wall will need a small elevated section to support the rest of the flat area for the turntable.

I haven't decided yet if the turntable will be represented as still functional, as present but disused, or whether it will be just the pit remaining with the track lifted.

The siren call of a location to park two locos is definitely there. But I think the scene would be better sold with it disused.

[Bloodnok]

 

More CAD in progress.

[Bloodnok]

Now available in Ply.



One bit still needs sanding down because it's standing proud. Then there are four more bits of wood to add, and after that I'm all done with making frame pieces.

On to surface, making sure places to install electronics are available, and ... finally getting back to doing some tracklaying.

[Bloodnok]

 

I still need to trim the upper level piece, split it where the flat bits for the carriage sidings and turntable are, and make a tiny little bridging piece up at the top left. But I'm nearly done making surface panels now too.

[Bloodnok]

This board is full of complex levels. Rising gradient through the middle on a curve towards the station throat. Flat on the left for a turntable (complete with pit already cut, as cutting that later would be an absolute pain). Flat (but higher) on the right for the carriage sidings.

Still haven't decided if the turntable will be installed and working, disused but present, or just a scenic pit. Whichever way round it'll be a compromise -- 
 

From the other direction. Yes, I took the opportunity before I cut the hole to draw centrelines on for tracks away from the pit, which are aligned on the centre. I'm sure I'll thank myself later.
 

And with the plan back in place on top of the board:
 

[Bloodnok]

With the current unavailability of Zimo decoders (I haven't been able to buy an MX638D since February), and with a growing "pile of shame" of new locos which can't be run on the layout because they have no chips, I have decided to try out a few different DCC decoders to see if I can find more suitable options.

I tried out a DCC Concepts Zen Black decoder on the basis that several people have espoused how wonderful their ABC implementation is.
 

This turns out not to have been such a good idea, as it's completely incompatible with everyone else. Not only is there is no attempt at constant distance stopping, but they've dropped the 'right rail'/'left rail' distinction, so the loco didn't even react to the braking section when going in with the no.2 end leading.

[Bloodnok]

So ... what the hell happened?

All this rapid baseboard building progress up to August, then ... it all goes suspiciously quiet.

I had set myself a deadline. I was trying to get a loop around the room in place for when my parents in law were visiting from Australia.
It became clear fairly early on that that wasn't an achievable target, and that the junctions were going to be the sticking point. So the revised target was all the plain line up to the first junction in both directions -- which is about three quarters of a circuit.
When it became clear that even that wasn't an achievable target, the revised target was to clear the rest of the house of wood before they arrived.

An 8x4 sheet of ply will not fit inside my shed. Nor will a 3.6m long piece of PSE. It all needed cutting, and in the right places. That means building enough of the layout to know where to cut, and that realistically meant building all of the baseboard.

 

I did achieve this reduced target, building all the framing and cutting the surface to shape (current state as of two posts ago). The remaining small spare bits of ply all fit in the shed, and the few bits of PSE remaining could also be stored out of the way.

 

Then there was visitors, and trips, and the inevitable lack of money when you are trying to keep up with people who are on holiday and have budgeted for lots of visits to cafes and restaurants and things.

I could have picked right up after they left, laying that three quarters of a circuit which I had all the parts for. But I didn't, and since then there has been effectively zero progress.

Normally when there's a pause like this, I'm not quite happy with something. At some point what it is will surface, I'll revise the design to accommodate, and progress will resume.

In this case it's not track plan (that's basically fixed now as the boards are cut) nor baseboard construction (that's basically all done aside from screwing down three of the surfaces).

 

Nevertheless, something was wrong and I wasn't sure what.

It's taken a while, but I think I know what's wrong now. The electronics on the lower level is becoming increasingly more difficult to get at as further baseboard surface goes in. Now, it's all supposed to be hidden, but there's a difference between hidden and inaccessible, and some parts of it are heading more towards the latter than the former.

I know what I need to fix now. I need to re-mount some of the electronics in a more accessible location. Out of the four active concentration points, I really only need to revise one of them. Two more that haven't been used yet also need a revision, too.

I just need a bit more 2x1 PSE to get it done...

[5BarVT]

Pleased to hear that you’ve got to the root of the problem and sorted a solution.  Sometimes these things take time and then suddenly the answer becomes ‘obvious’.

Paul.

[Bloodnok]

 

New electronics mounting location is now fully cat approved. I just need to fix the red wires -- the software doesn't know they are connected in different locations yet so it's controlling the wrong things. Amazingly, the black wires and the servos all ended up back in exactly the same place. Not sure if it's going to be easier to re-connect the pink control wires, or actually tell the software where the red wires moved to.

[5BarVT]

56 minutes ago, Bloodnok said:

Not sure if it's going to be easier to re-connect the pink control wires, or actually tell the software where the red wires moved to.

That’s the beauty and the pain of software.  You can do it in either place but you need to record where or it becomes a right pain later!

Paul.

[Bloodnok]

11 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

That’s the beauty and the pain of software.  You can do it in either place but you need to record where or it becomes a right pain later!

Paul.

Yup.

I can test the servos easily -- I tell one to move, and I watch what moves. If it's the right one, great. If the wrong one moves, then that's pretty obvious.

Same with the black wires. I put a train on the track, and a block lights up red on the PC. I can easily see if it's the wrong one.

It's a bit harder with the red wires, as there's no visual indication of what's going on.

I drove a loco straight through storage road 1, without stopping and without setting a route out the end. It should have stopped at the end under ABC. I heard a relay clicking at the right time, but if the wrong relay was driven, I would expect it not to stop. I had the exit points lined up just in case (but no route active).

So ... I started going through the software config. Road 1 is driving the right relay. Road 2 is also fine. I'm sure if I tested 3 and 4, those would be fine too.

So I tested a different loco. It stopped as expected.

So ... a loco / chip problem? Perhaps, but it had stopped at the entrance to the storage yard as intended, and it has just done that again. Thoroughly confused now...

[Bloodnok]

 

... And that's why and how I moved lots of electronics about.

[ITG]

On 13/04/2020 at 09:42, Bloodnok said:

The polarity doesn't change from the bridge round to the right. It also doesn't change on the outer track of the left or straight runs -- the fact it has a balloon loop at the far end makes it effectively a giant straight through loop, even though the ascent and descent are then of different polarities. The only bit that actually needs to change is the centre 3rd track of the ascent/descent, which is big enough to fit a complete train.

I believe I can drive this reversing section with just a DPDT relay and the inputs from the signalling system -- there should be no need for a short circuit based "reversing module".

It’s back a while that you kindly responded to a poster to explain your thinking re reversing loop wiring.

I’m quite taken by some the principles in your track layout, particularly the combination of terminus, continuous run and reversing loop. So much so that a forthcoming layout of mine may try to adopt some similarities. But I wonder if you could elaborate a little as to the way in which your reversing loops work.

1. I can see that the centre rail on the left is the reversing link to the storage yard reversing loop ballon . So does that mean that the two right hand points giving access to the centre turnout/rail, are completely isolated from that centre turnout? And where is the insulated break at the other end of that centre rail? Is there a break halfway round the balloon?

2. what about the double track triangle which is created north of the bridge? Isn’t that another reversing loop, even though in absolute terms, you probably would never use it to reverse a train Where are the breaks, and polarity changing feeds?

 

i’m planning on using iTrain to automate my layout, using current sensors to determine train position. Hence I will most likely opt for an automated polarity switch, rather than a DPDT which you mentioned.

Any help much appreciated.

Ian

[Bloodnok]

On 07/11/2022 at 08:52, ITG said:

It’s back a while that you kindly responded to a poster to explain your thinking re reversing loop wiring.

I’m quite taken by some the principles in your track layout, particularly the combination of terminus, continuous run and reversing loop. So much so that a forthcoming layout of mine may try to adopt some similarities. But I wonder if you could elaborate a little as to the way in which your reversing loops work.

 

Sure :-)

 

On 07/11/2022 at 08:52, ITG said:

1. I can see that the centre rail on the left is the reversing link to the storage yard reversing loop ballon . So does that mean that the two right hand points giving access to the centre turnout/rail, are completely isolated from that centre turnout? And where is the insulated break at the other end of that centre rail? Is there a break halfway round the balloon?

 

The reversing section is the entire third road down the middle of the ramp. It includes one turnout each end, but no more.

There is no (*reversing) break in the balloon loop. If you were running around the continuous run, took a left after the small station, and went across the left-most track of the large bridge, you can go all the way down to the storage yard, through it, and up the far side of the ramp back onto the continuous run onto the same track you just left from (and running in the same direction as you were) without ever putting a wheel onto a reversing section.

It is when you need to rise up from the storage yard, go into the middle line, and then turn right to cross the large bridge across the room that you need to go across the reversing module. Same when entering the storage yard from the right hand end of the layout, down the middle line, and then into the storage yard.

That centre road has five (!!) detected sections -- each turnout, and three in the middle (the approach sections in front of the signal at each end, and the centre of the ramp). I switch the polarity when a route is set into the section, and again on the way out when a) there is a route set, and b) the train is within the centre three sections.

It's working fine so far driving a train in from the yard, and reversing it back to the yard the other way. The track at the top is not working yet (one way is laid but not wired, the other way is not even laid).

 

On 07/11/2022 at 08:52, ITG said:

2. what about the double track triangle which is created north of the bridge? Isn’t that another reversing loop, even though in absolute terms, you probably would never use it to reverse a train Where are the breaks, and polarity changing feeds?

 

The upper left junction of that triangle is one end of the reversing section. The other end is the other end of the three-track section up the hill.

 

On 07/11/2022 at 08:52, ITG said:

i’m planning on using iTrain to automate my layout, using current sensors to determine train position.

 

I'm also using current sensors. Biggest thing with current sensors is to make sure the back of the trains all have something on them that pulls current so it can be detected. I have a lot of lights to fit to things like brake vans.

 

On 07/11/2022 at 08:52, ITG said:

Hence I will most likely opt for an automated polarity switch, rather than a DPDT which you mentioned.

 

Mine is a DPDT relay, driven from the signalling system. It's automated in the sense that while operating I never have to worry about it, but it's not "turn-key automatic" in the way that the short-detecting ones are. I still had to write the logic to drive it.

HTH :-)

[ITG]

Thanks a lot. My new “train room” has not yet had a spade into the ground, and will be about 5.5m x 2.5m when built, I suspect slightly narrower than your allotted space.

 

I have a simple layout set up in the garage solely to learn iTrain, not only the software, but how best to wire the track, where isolating sections are best etc. The advantage of the room not yet built, is that it forces plenty of time for planning!

 

On 08/11/2022 at 16:25, Bloodnok said:

'm also using current sensors. Biggest thing with current sensors is to make sure the back of the trains all have something on them that pulls current so it can be detected. I have a lot of lights to fit to things like brake vans.

Have you seen the DCC Concepts wheels/axles with resistors built in? Quicker than lights, though of course you don’t get the effect.

Edited November 11, 2022 by ITG
Spelling

[Bloodnok]

On 08/11/2022 at 17:01, ITG said:

Thanks a lot. My new “train room” has not yet had a spade into the ground, and will be about 5.5m x 2.5m when built, I suspect slightly narrower than your allotted space.

 

My layout is 4m long on the lower levels, 4.45m long at the max extent of the terminus station. Total width is 2.9m.

 

On 08/11/2022 at 17:01, ITG said:

Have you seen the DCC Concepts wheels/axles with resistors built in? Quicker than lights, though of course you don’t get the effect.

I have. They do look very useful, but they are also plain disc wheels. No problem in a decent range of freight wagons, but on current wagons, the wheels are often spoked, drilled, shaped, or have cosmetic brake discs on the wheels or axles. These may be a step backwards in appearance on some wagons.

I'm also looking at their spring axle pickups, which look like an interesting way to add pickups to vehicles not designed to have them.

[Bloodnok]

This was the progress on the 23rd.

 

 

I got up on the morning of the 24th, all eager to continue ... only to find I was fresh out of Code 75 insulating rail joiners. Out of all the four options, that was the only one I had none spare of. After calling every model shop in my county who were open on Christmas Eve, and finding no-one had any in stock ... things screeched to a dramatic halt.

 

Yesterday evening, I was invited to a not-quite-local model railway club ... and someone gave me some. So I haven't had to rush around today to different model shops (that weren't open on Christmas Eve) who ... might ... or might not ... have had some.

 

Instead, we have the last of the FB C75 gluing, under all this stuff:

 

 

And I'm prepping for tracklaying on the removable bridge, too. Copperclad sleepers are being glued either side of the join both sides for every track.

 

 

This was after a little bit of remedial work making sure it all sat right and didn't bind on anything, as it's been out for at least 6 months.

[Bloodnok]

More progress. Two lines have approached the bridge. Track under here is Exactoscale FastTrack Concrete Sleeper with Code 83 rail to represent post-1960 mainline practice.

 

Over the bridge itself I'm laying baulk road with Peco individulay pandrol clips. This hasn't been glued yet -- that's a tomorrow job, with different glue than I've been using so far.

 

And one line has reached the north side of the room, too:

 

 

Three lengths down, five more to go.