Piko Smart Control Light

[Chilly]

Hi 

 

The track is designed and set in stone with the help of the good people of this forum and in particular to Chimer who basically designed it for me, the link shows the birth of the layout.

 

 

I am thinking of a DCC train control and DC controlled points.

 

I have researched through this forum which is a fantastic source of information.

 

To that end I came across this system and wondered if anyone has got any experience of this control as it seems to offer quite a lot for the price, 2a power, can attach another hand controller, numerous trains, points, expandable etc 

 

I think I like the idea of a knob controller in preference to computer/laptop/phone and this has piqued my interest.

 

 Thanks Chilly

[WIMorrison]

Your challenge might be with available power. This is a 2 amp systems and your layout will have a few locos on it which will all draw current and you may reach the limit quite quickly. These figures can be used to calculate your power needs (they have proved quite accurate previously) 

 

▪ stationary locomotives with lighting: approx. 100 mA

▪ travelling locomotives depending on the size and load: 300-600 mA

▪ illuminated carriage: approx. 30 mA per bulb (caution: considerable fluctuations!)

▪ Digital coupling or steam generator: approx. 100 mA

▪ Digital point machines or point decoders: approx. 700 mA reserve

 

https://www.z21.eu/media/Kwc_Basic_DownloadTag_Trl_Component.Kwc_Basic_DownloadTag_Component/root-en-main_36-2530-1509-downloadTag/default/531127d7/1550470034/Benutzerhandbuch-10806-10807.pdf

[Chilly]

Hi

 

I see what you mean hmm

 

With the points when done being DC still may need a bit more oomph.

 

The mainline runs are around 45 feet each around the wall, small loco yard and 10 trains on the layout probably 3 running.

 

No lights/steam/ or sound though as not that bothered about that at the moment but there may come a time but that is way off in the distance and things will have moved on by then.

 

I had seen the z21 but thought it was all swipe screen stuff I will revisit, my other thought was the Prodigy Advance again because of the control knob.

 

Thanks Chilly

 

 

 

[WIMorrison]

This works extremely well with a z or Z21

 

https://www.roco.cc/en/product/235722-0-0-0-0-0-0-004001-0/products.html

 

Z21 is more expensive than z21 but it does allow for future expansion better than z21 and  let face it, you want to buy a good command station from the start. You wont find many7 posts about faults of issues with either the z or Z21 (issues are generally from people trying to use the app ) - which says something about the quality and reliability of the z/Z21 .

[Chilly]

Thanks Iain

 

Looks good so could be z21 plus a couple of controllers and sorted, I will delve a bit deeper.

 

After reviewing the pages on here it looks like Zimo decoders are the ones to go far I think they are the 600 series.

 

Cheers Chilly

 

[jpendle]

I would lean towards the Z21 rather than the z21, it's worth it just for the separate programming track output.

Also if you are going to use Zimo decoders then most of the 600 series can have their firmware updated from the Z21 without the need for a separate decoder tester/programmer.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[Chilly]

Hi John

 

Thanks for the input.

 

I note that both the z21 and Z21 run at 3A will that be sufficient ?

 

Chilly

Edited May 31, 2020 by Chilly

[Guest Half-full]

41 minutes ago, Chilly said:

Hi John

 

Thanks for the input.

 

I note that both the z21 and Z21 run at 3A will that be sufficient ?

 

Chilly

3A is more than enough to run a few fully featured loco's at once

 

Whilst it was said above that the Z21's programme track feature is enough to justify the difference in cost difference, you can do you're own programme track for the cost of a toggle switch.  If you think you'll use the extra feature on the Z21 then by all means purchase it. 

 

I have the z21 which provides me with all I need, though I am thinking of going back to NCE which I ran for 10 years or so previously

[Chilly]

Hi Half-full

 

My trains are steam, 10 in total - line length 45ft x 2 plus small loco yards no lights and I am not planning on the sound fitting route and the plan is for DC point control so 3A is sufficient to run say 3-4 trains simultaneously?

 

I think the z21 with a handheld multimaus appears to be sufficient plus perhaps another handheld unit later.

 

Does the z21 have everything you need in the box including 1 handheld?

 

Chilly

 

 

 

Edited May 31, 2020 by Chilly

[jpendle]

4 hours ago, Half-full said:

3A is more than enough to run a few fully featured loco's at once

 

Whilst it was said above that the Z21's programme track feature is enough to justify the difference in cost difference, you can do you're own programme track for the cost of a toggle switch.  If you think you'll use the extra feature on the Z21 then by all means purchase it. 

 

I have the z21 which provides me with all I need, though I am thinking of going back to NCE which I ran for 10 years or so previously

Hi Half-full,

 

I have a question about the z21 and decoder programming. If you select Program Track in the App does the DCC output of the z21 become a programming output? I’m trying to help a z21 user on another forum but as I have a Z21 I’m unsure about some of the details.

 

Thanks,

 

John P

[WIMorrison]

John

 

The output changes to a programming track, but you will need to go through a DPDT switch to isolate the layout and energise the programming track - though of course, Railcom could be used which doesn't need a programming track at all

 

https://www.z21.eu/en/products/z21start/connections-z21

 

[WIMorrison]

9 hours ago, Chilly said:

Hi Half-full

 

My trains are steam, 10 in total - line length 45ft x 2 plus small loco yards no lights and I am not planning on the sound fitting route and the plan is for DC point control so 3A is sufficient to run say 3-4 trains simultaneously?

 

I think the z21 with a handheld multimaus appears to be sufficient plus perhaps another handheld unit later.

 

Does the z21 have everything you need in the box including 1 handheld?

 

Chilly

 

 

 

 

If you buy the white z21 from a reputable dealer then it should have everything. They are only sold by Roco combined with trains however most reputable dealers will split the loco, wagons/coaches and white z21 as they make a greater profit

 

https://www.z21.eu/en/z21-system/the-models

 

Here is a good value z21 purchase for you

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Roco-Fleischmann-10825-z21-Start-10814-z21-Package-10813-Z21-Wlanmaus-New/313077486632?hash=item48e4df5428:g:HrsAAOSwU8hY6~PZ

 

or go for the Black version 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Roco-Z21-Model-Railway-Digital-Control-System-DCC-controller-OO-HO-N-gauge/184309058675?hash=item2ae9ad0c73:g:~nEAAOSwLmxe0CnY

 

 

Edited June 1, 2020 by WIMorrison
added URLs

[Chilly]

Hi Iain

 

With the white one package you mention it appears the router code comes with it as well?

 

Is CV programming easy? Will the z21 be able to perform this function? On their site I thought I had seen that it had a separate program track function?

 

I have seen one person being worried about the track voltage, his was a N gauge, did you have any concerns?

 

My trains are OO gauge Hornby and Bachmann all bought within last 8 weeks new apart from 1 all to be fitted with Zimo's which I believe Roco's support any way.

 

Is Ebay the best place to pick up a further Wlan Maus handset?

 

Thanks Chilly  

Edited June 1, 2020 by Chilly

[WIMorrison]

In order

 

for the White z21

 

1) the unlock code is included in the wire package I showed.

 

2) you use the Maus to do the CV programming. You would move the loco to your programming track, throw the DPDT switch (wiring described in lots of places) and program using the keys on the Maus, not harder than any other system.

 

3) the track voltage is fully configurable using the Maintenance Program that you can install on your PC or using the Z21 App for your phone (Maint Program also makes CV programming a doddle). I model H0e which is n gauge chassis and run at a track voltage of 17v, absolutely no issues.

4). the z/Z21 supports ALL decoders, just that some of the Zimo decoders can be updated through the z/Z21 maintenance programs

5) you can get WifiMultimaus from lots of places - google will turn them up, but eBay will also show German resellers

 

personally I would go for the second hand black Z21, make him a sensible offer and you never know. You would then have a command station that will support you whatever direction you go and you can buy a Maus separately 

[Chilly]

Hi Iain

 

I am sold on the system

 

I don't think I need the black one as only ever 4 - 6 trains will be running (little required by way of light as Steam, no intention for smoke or sound yet) with the others parked up, the points will be DC when I get around to it so the white one seems OK for what I need

 

Just wary on all the disclaimers for the black one - sold as seen - no returns etc. White one registered business seller etc and around for nearly 20 years.

 

Just been reading the Roco site, it looks like 3 wired handsets the red ones can be tethered to the white system whereas wireless looks like many can be linked.

 

Thanks Chilly

[Ron Ron Ron]

Just from observation, it appears to me that the WLAN MultiMaus handsets (black coloured) are generally cheaper bought new from retailers, especially with a discount. Don’t rule out using German retailers either.

eBay prices for these Handsets can be up to £10 or £15 more.

 

If you buy a z21 system from a retailer via eBay, these are usually brand new items, taken from Roco train sets that have been split up and the contents sold separately.

Many of them come with a tethered (red coloured) MultIMaus handset included; in which case there is no real need to buy the black WLAN handset at all, unless you want to wireless capability.

 

A z21 with a (red) MultiMaus can be had for around £140 to £160 .

 

 

 

.

[Chilly]

Hi Ron3

 

How long are the cables for the red Multi's ?

 

It also appears that you can dock 3 red hand sets into a z21, I think I may have repeated myself 

 

As the shelf layout runs around the room on 3 sides and above the bed just thinking wireless maybe easier, dimension is 20ft down right wall, 13ft top end and 16ft down the left wall with a double bed centrally located at the 13ft end.

 

It looks like I could link another wireless (perhaps quite a few) to the z21 such that I could operate one side and someone else the other and swap positions as the trains go round the layout from one side to the other.

 

The £223 price of a z21, modem and wireless handset doesn't appear that bad plus from a German retailer.

 

Chilly

 

 

Edited June 1, 2020 by Chilly

[jpendle]

5 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

In order

 

for the White z21

 

3) the track voltage is fully configurable using the Maintenance Program that you can install on your PC or using the Z21 App for your phone (Maint Program also makes CV programming a doddle). I model H0e which is n gauge chassis and run at a track voltage of 17v, absolutely no issues.

 

Hi,

 

According to the Roco website you cannot programmatically change the track voltage of the z21, this is an additional feature of the Z21.

However the track voltage on the z21 is around 1V less than the DC input voltage.

 

According to Revolution/Rapido they recommend that the track voltage not exceed 15V so as not to damage the ESU Loksound decoders in their Pendolino models.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[WIMorrison]

John

 

i suspect that 15v figure refers to DC and from what I recall DC was quoted in RMS which would mean that 15v could peak at around 21v.

 

Roco sell the z21 with their starter H0e sets which are n-gauge chassis and t hey don’t have any issues, I Run my H0e with 17v and haven’t ever seen an issue. I know 2 people who run n-gauge layouts (one z21 and the other Z21) with both of them having used the z/Z21 out of the box and until the Mac version of the Maint Program was released they were goosed anyway

 

DCC track Voltage isn’t what the motor gets as that is limited by the decoder and I don’t think a voltage is specified in the standards, IIRC a minimum voltage is specified but not a maximum.

 

Anyway, back to reality - the Z and z 21s are used by most people ‘out of the box’ and if there was any issue then Roco would have fixed it king time ago and I, for one, will now to their superior knowledge - and liability if their default setting were to cause an issue

[Chilly]

Hi Iain

 

Looks like 00 gauge should be fine then plus using Zimo's which again I hope are fine.

 

In view of my reply to Ron above have you any idea of the length of the Red cables?

 

I suspect that Wireless maybe the way forward with that deal you linked above which looks good value to me.

 

Update

 

Thanks Iain

 

Ah he who waits ..................…. sometimes can't wait any longer just bought it - just need some track

 

Iain what's the little green screw thing under the plug in the bottom left of the picture for?

 

Cheers Chilly

Edited June 1, 2020 by Chilly

[WIMorrison]

I know that when I had a red one I change the cable for a 'telephone' style curly cord as I didn't like the flat cable that came with it - which was around 2m IIRC.

 

In you situation the Wifi Maus is what I would go for, easy to carry around - though also easy to put it down and forget where you put it down!

 

At least with the red one you only have to follow the cord to find it

[Chilly]

That was my thinking so I went with your link above and arriving between 10-17 June will be Roco/Fleischmann 10825 z21 Start +10814 z21 Package+10813 Z21 Wlanmaus New

 

On the Roco site under z21 it states

 

Digitalzentrale z21® (start)

 

 

Under Features

 

Controls up to 9.999 DCC loco decoders

Controls up to 2.048 DCC switch decoders

Adjustable, rectified track voltage (12-24 V, 3 A) for a smooth driving operation with different decoders 

Compatible with Z21 multiMAUS models and Lokmaus

Seperate programming track connection with Zimo decoder update

Feedback via RailCom®

Many interfaces

Software and sound updates via smartphone

 

Technical details

Input voltage

12-24 V

Output voltage

equivalent to 1 V below input voltage

Maximum output current

3 A

Short circuit/overload shutdown function

Yes, at currents over 3 A

Analogue locos

Cannot be controlled

Maximum number of trains

100 locomotives simultaneously

Edited June 1, 2020 by Chilly

[WIMorrison]

[Chilly]

Cheers Iain

 

So trains - sorted

System - sorted

Track - hmm to order whenever there is any 

 

Decoders - Zimo 600 series from what I see on here should be alright with this, just need to check the pins 

 

Thanks for your help

 

Chilly

[WIMorrison]

@Chilly - which picture to see the ‘green thing’?