jpendle Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 (edited) Hi Iain, All my MX617's show 197 in CV250, and that is the only type for the MX617 that I can see in the Zimo decoder manual. With regard to your loco speeds changing, one of the reasons I've been updating all my decoders is that I found that MX621 and MX622 equipped locos ran 2-3 times slower than the same loco equipped with an MX617 or 618, which made double heading a bit tricky. After updating my MX622's those locos now run 2 to 3 times faster than they did before. The difference was so pronounced that I noticed it after reprogramming my first loco and driving on the programming track. I haven't used speed curves on any of my decoders, but I suspect that you are seeing something similar. BTW, according to the maintenance app manual the MX638 is not supported. So you should get an appropriate message back from the app when you try to do the update. Regards, John P Edited June 12, 2020 by jpendle Correction Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 1 hour ago, NickC said: Iain, are you using the Roco specific download file from zimo for the Z21? I loaded ‘Roco_Z21_200110.zsu’ into the maintenance tool and was able to reprogram all my MX600 decoders to the latest firmware version without a problem. Like you i am using Z21 black with firmware 1.33 regards Nick Yes, that is what I am using and the type 177 MX617 and MX638 will not program - do you (or does anyone else) have either of these decoders and managed to program them? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpendle Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 1 hour ago, WIMorrison said: Yes, that is what I am using and the type 177 MX617 and MX638 will not program - do you (or does anyone else) have either of these decoders and managed to program them? Hi Iain, The Z21 can't be used to program the MX638, see my earlier post. I don't have the MX638 but I do have MX621's and they are not supported and I can't program them. Which matches what Roco say in their documentation. Your type 177 MX617's are interesting in that although the Roco .zsu file clearly shows them in it's list of decoders, the latest Zimo Small Decoder manual that I can find doesn't have any entry on page 5 for ANY decoder with a type of 177. Also the 'type' appears to correspond to the 'Start Byte' in the .zsu file. Is there any other difference between the type 177's & the type 197's? John P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 As far as I can see, and certainly performance or CV wise there is no difference just a different value in CV250 and as you say it is in the .zsu file, but then the MX638 is also in the zsu file Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpendle Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 Maybe it's worth emailing Zimo to ask what the difference is? John P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 done Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 The Z21 can update all ZIMO decoders (from any source) provided it is a type fitted to Roco models. Other types, especially but not exclusively the older designs, are not supported. It's also worth noting that, due to hardware, the software of some decoder types cannot be updated to the latest version number available for other types. e.g MX621 to which no software beyond V31.5 can be loaded by any interface, including ZIMO's own MXULFA. For a full description of what's possible, see this page: http://www.zimo.at/web2010/support/MX-Decoder-SW-Update.htm The dowload is a 'container' which has all the latest software for each decoder type, but that does not mean that all types are at the same version currently. For example, the latest for most types including sound is V39.0 (though I'm currently working with V39.2) but for MX621 it is V31.5 and for MX821 it's V30.0 The header in the ,zsu file denotes which decoder types and software versions are included in the release. There are sometimes two or more different software versions for the same outwardly similar decoder types, depending upon hardware revisions. Obviously, the earlier revisions still deserve support if the hardware is suitable. So, although there might be a more recent (datewise) container download, the version it holds for any particular decoder type may not be any advance on the software currently loaded on the decoder in question. The English Language versions of the decoder manuals always lag behind the corresponding German versions so it's always worth having a look there to check if there's more up to date info available. CV250 = 117 is listed there as an MX617. Der Typ (ID) des Decoders kann bei Bedarf aus CV #250 ausgelesen werden:130=MX630 (2020)133=MX633 (2020)134=MX634 (2020)135=MX635 136=MX636137=MX637142=MDS442160=MX660165=REE_DU65166=MX600171=MX671175=MX675 176=R72016177=MX617181=MX618182=MX682186=MX605N187=MX605FL 188=MX605SL189=MX605190=MX659192=MX622 (2020)193=MX638195=MX616196=MXKISS 197=MX617198=FLM_E69199=MX600200=MX82 200=MX82 201=MX620202=MX62 203=MX63 204=MX64 205=MX64H206=MX64D207=MX680208=MX690209=MX69 210=MX640211=MX630-P2520 212=MX632213=MX631214=MX642215=MX643216=MX647217=MX646 218=MX630 (2011)219=MX631 (2011)220=MX632 (2011)221=MX645222=MX644223=MX621224=MX695 RevB225=MX648226=MX685227=MX695 RevC228=MX681229=MX695N230=MX696231=MX696N232=MX686233=MX622234=MX623235=MX687 236=MX621-FLM237=MX633238=MX820 RevA240=MX634241=MX686B242=MX820 RevB243=MX618244=Roco NextG245=MX697 RevA246=MX658247=MX688248=MX821249=MX648 RevC,D250=MX699251=Roco 2067252=Roco ICE253=MX649254=MX697 RevB Sorry, the formatting was lost on posting. Best regards, Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 (edited) Paul the MX617 is listed as 197 and 177 (not 117?) and also the MX638 is listed as 193 but decoders with Start Byte 177 and 193 will not update with the message that this type of decoder is not supported. You will note that version39.0 is the version offered which is higher than the existing versions so why does Zimo list an updated software version if that cannot be applied? EDIT - they also offer31.6 for the MX621 and that is newer than what you say can be installed. something is wrong somewhere. BTW your link doesn't even show the MX617 Edited June 12, 2020 by WIMorrison Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpendle Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 50 minutes ago, WIMorrison said: BTW your link doesn't even show the MX617 Hi Iain, I was looking earlier today at the Zimo website and I noticed the same thing. According to the Zimo website the MX617 doesn't exist. Bu I've just looked again and the German version of the website shows the MX617, it's just the English version that doesn't. 'Confused? You will be, after the next episode of Soap reading the Zimo website John P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpendle Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 Hi, It looks as if Zimo put all their firmware for every decoder into the Z21 update file, and then Roco determine which decoders they will allow the update on. That seems a little strange to me. I could understand Zimo limiting which decoders can be updated on the Z21, but I would have thought it would be selling point for Roco if they allowed users to update any Zimo decoder for which Zimo provided the firmware. John P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 John They haven't put all the decoder files in the Z21 file as there are only 50 decoders listed in the Z21 fil but there are 69 listed in the other files and in addition there are 2 files that the Z21 cannot open. What I do notice is that all the MX617 files have different data offsets and data lengths (different from the Zimo files also) which suggests that whilst functionally and commercially the same decoder they are in fact different needing different software to achieve the same outcome. I guess we need to see if they reply to me and what they say about the differences and why some decoders cannot be upgraded using the Z21. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 I have a very full and complete answer from Zimo which explains a lot, the summary of which is below. The Z21 in default state will only update decoders that Roco have factory fitted in their models, and the MX638 hasn't been used by Roco and neither has the MX617 (type 177) hence the updater refusing to update these decoders. He has advised me that there is a way to 'unlock' the Z21 maintenance tool to allow it to update all Zimo decoders, however that information is held by Roco and Zimo are not at liberty do divulge the information. Does anyone know this unlocking trick? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpendle Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 Hi Iain, I suppose we could always ask Roco? It seems to me that it would be an additional selling point for the Z21, maybe if enough of us made the request it might get somewhere. BTW did Zimo explain the difference between the 177 & 197 MX617's? Regards, John P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 The 177 versions of the MX617 are the (much) newer model with more memory and the capability of having more functions/CVs above CV255, though what these CVs would be used or when for wasn't said. It was inferred that the 177 version may be available in a future update of the Z21 firmware as it is Roco that restricts the ability, though I am also sure that there is some commercial agreement in place to restrict the Z21 capability to DCC Fitted decoders only. I will try pinging Roco 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveArkley Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 10 hours ago, WIMorrison said: I have a very full and complete answer from Zimo which explains a lot, the summary of which is below. The Z21 in default state will only update decoders that Roco have factory fitted in their models, and the MX638 hasn't been used by Roco and neither has the MX617 (type 177) hence the updater refusing to update these decoders. He has advised me that there is a way to 'unlock' the Z21 maintenance tool to allow it to update all Zimo decoders, however that information is held by Roco and Zimo are not at liberty do divulge the information. Does anyone know this unlocking trick? I've heard mention of it in a vague reference on a German forum. Google translate indicated that holding the shift key down was relevant, I've been meaning to test for a while if holding shift down while clicking the update button works the magic, just haven't got around to it yet Cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveArkley Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 1 hour ago, DaveArkley said: I've heard mention of it in a vague reference on a German forum. Google translate indicated that holding the shift key down was relevant, I've been meaning to test for a while if holding shift down while clicking the update button works the magic, just haven't got around to it yet Cheers Dave Just tried it, that's not he solution! Cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 (edited) On a forum in another country I found this, quote from a Zimo employee. I don't have a Z21, so can't comment on whether it works. Quote So you can load any zpp-File (ZIMO sound project in Ready-to-Use-format) from our SoundDataBase (http://www.zimo.at/web2010/sound/tableindex.htm) via it, as long as the ZIMO sound project is not offered only in coded/crypted format (Because for loading coded/crypted soundprojects you need a so-called "load code" for this particular sound decoder. A load code is a kind of license fee, which you have to pay before you can load (regardless with device you use, in your case the Roco Z21) any coded/crypted soundproject from a certain soundprovider/soundprojectauthor into a ZIMO sound decoder. Feel free to contact me again, if you need more details about the load code concept.). Roco has optimized the "Roco Maintenance Tool" for the update/soundload for certain ZIMO decoder series (only the ZIMO decoder series, they use/have used in their models), but you can "unlock it" to update/soundload of all ZIMO decoder series (ever produced!) by simple pressing (and holding down) "Control"+"Alt" and additionally shortly pressing key "Z" - at time when you have the Roco Maintenance Tool window open, where you choose the file (.zsu, .zpp). Be aware "unlocking it" also leads to a by-pass of the usual security checks (f.e.: Reading out CV#7 - the decoder manufacturer ID - just to make sure, that it is a ZIMO sounddecoder) which are automatically performed by Roco Maintenance Tool before the real load process starts. So make sure, when you use it that CV#144 is 0 (because via this CV you can block any update) and the analogue mode in CV#29 is turned off BEFORE you perform a softwareupdate/soundload. So you must always check (and maybe change) the CV#144 and CV#29 of the ZIMO decoder BEFORE you use the Roco Maintenance Tool in unlock mode to update (or load a new sound) Edited June 17, 2020 by Nigelcliffe 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 Nigel - this is working BUT you need to disable DC running in CV29 before you try it and set CV144=0 as it falls over if you don't as unlike the standard update procedure it doesn't appear to check CV144. I have to reprogramme a couple of times to recover it as CV29=14, changed it to 10 and then all OK and changed it back to 14 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveArkley Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 11 minutes ago, WIMorrison said: Nigel - this is working BUT you need to disable DC running in CV29 before you try it and set CV144=0 as it falls over if you don't as unlike the standard update procedure it doesn't appear to check CV144. I have to reprogramme a couple of times to recover it as CV29=14, changed it to 10 and then all OK and changed it back to 14 Works here too. Thanks guys Cheers Dave 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpendle Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 Hi, I've just been over to the shed and it worked fine. Regards, John P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 All’s well that end well then :) 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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