The Isle of Alnogg - Dogger Bank

[DCB]

It's quit amazing how much effort goes into these back stories.   Makes my attempts to justify the rai nework on the Isle of Skye and the Campbeltown to Inverary narrow gauge line which conneted with the Inverary branch of the North British (West Highand)  line seem positively lame.  Trouble is if there had been an Island of Tumm, wouldn't the Germans have invaded it in the wars and wouldn't history have been different, like we would have been ruled from Berlin and driven our cars on t'other side of road? Just think, Not BR standard locos but DR standard locos, 4-6-2s and 2-10-0s with wagner styling, BR size V200 Diesels, just imagine Gresley A3s with german smoke deflectors, no world would have been a different place, no end of steam in 68, No Morris Minors, No Jowett Javelins, No TSR 2. No Fairy Delta. No Concorde.

Think I'll stick to planning neverwazza lines Scotland before I get too carried away.

Those Box cabs and little 2-6-0s are making me think, but no, its a bit late to change the garden railway from Standard Gauge Scotland circa 1988 to NG.

[CKPR]

Ah, but perhaps the Isle of Tumm would have changed the balance of power and the direction of history in north-west Europe such that Germany became a federation akin to Switzerland and with no Prussian domination, no Bismark and no WW1. And with no WW1, thankfully there would have been no Hitler and no WW2. This also means that you could justify a slowed down rate of industrial and technological change in your version of the 20th century and extend the 'pre-grouping' era  into the late 1920s-early 1930s, with all this implies for the railways of the Isle of Tumm.

[Player of trains]

The affect on the world wars is an interesting thing to consider. Really though nothing actually changes in my own canon, invading the island would be significantly difficult, England and later Britain defended it because it was once the ideal staging ground for an invasion but by the industrial revolution and certainly once the aviation age began it would get significantly more difficult to invade from the island, its not next door either, its in the middle of the North sea so even from mainland Europe an invasion is difficult. In a hypothetical scenario I think Britain would fall before Tumm, not that it would make any difference but I don't think an invasion is strategically sound. 

 

However Tumm does not go unscathed. Far far from it, its a domestic oil and gas supply for Britain with offshore platforms being experimented with as early as 1930 in the shallow channel off Castrum Bay. In both world wars the island was heavily bombed by Zeppelin raids and the Luftwaffe and further attacked with V1 and V2 missiles and proposals were discovered for a V3 gun aimed at the oil field in Torrshire. The destruction was concentrated on the fuel sites and railways and directly contributed to a huge motive power crisis on the island not unlike the Southern's issues not truly solved until the 70s. Older designs were kept in service till breaking point and nothing was there to replace them. 

[J-Mo Arts]

My contribution to Tumm is the Selheika Quarry Railway.

 

It was opened in 1837 with a single 0-4-0 locomotive from England, 'Demesne'. It operated a twice-a-week train with horses taking lighter loads at the other times. The demand for stone came from the rebuilding of Selheika's harbour and breakwater. At its prime in 1848 the railway could afford a second locomotive, so the Danish 2-2-2WT 'Skjolla' was acquired. However in the 1870s the railway began to lose money rather rapidly due to the condition of its ageing locomotives and stock, and so was closed in 1878. From the 1880s to 1916, the line was unused. Rusting away, it was a (dangerous) playground for the local children. During WW1, sections of the track were destroyed by the WD in training exercises for soldiers attacking supply lines and railways. A short line along the old trackbed was built in 2'6" gauge to train the Engineers building trench railways on the Front. It was fully converted to narrow gauge (including overhead wire electrification of the port yard) post war. This line was then used by the NMR until the end of WW2 (the quarry was being used as a surveillance and espionage outpost/training area), when the quarry was reopened. In 1946 the new company, operating under the old Selheika Quarry Railway title, bought and regauged surplus engines from Scandinavia; a 2-8-0 and an 0-6-0T. An 0-4-0WT was bought at the same time but was found to be in poor condition when it arrived and so was stripped for parts to keep the others alive. These were used alongside the three electric locomotives previously owned by the NMR. Through the 1950s the company extended the line another 1/2 mile to reach new quarries, and a bronze age tomb was uncovered in 1952. The railway ran passenger trains up to the tomb on Saturday mornings from Selheika, with a return available in the late afternoon. The line was also used occasionally for military traffic from the NMR to Selheika.

Unfortunately the new quarries were short lived and the railway closed when the stone supply dried up in 1963. However a group of old workers and enthusiasts bought the line from the town to the tomb and a few assets (including the 0-6-0T and a battery locomotive) in 1969 after fundraising.

 

Thanks to PoT for including me in this great setting, and I'll make models of the early engines soon too!

[Northmoor]

On 01/03/2021 at 19:07, Player of trains said:

The heavy industry does remain on the north face of the island as several shipyards have remained open and expanded to  accommodate full drilling rigs and carrying ships for maintenance to save on costs of towing the rigs further afield to the coasts of other European countries. Agriculture remains a predominant industry on the island with open farming on the common ground remaining a common practice amongst the Tummish farmers, the grand majority being livestock like cattle and sheep although cereals are grown in the east of the island on rockier ground.

 

On 01/03/2021 at 19:26, Player of trains said:

As one more note please let me know if anything is obviously wrong with this, it's playing with history but I want to try to remain as plausible as possible.

I absolutely love this complete invented history. 

 

One very minor point, with reference to the statement in bold above.  Cereals would be grown on flatter, more fertile ground; it's very hard to cultivate crops on uneven rocky ground, even if you can get them to grow in the first place.  Note how East Anglian and Lincolnshire farms are overwhelmingly arable, while poor quality soils on uneven upland ground, like the Lake District or Snowdonia, aren't suitable for much more than grazing sheep.

 

Rob

[Player of trains]

14 hours ago, Northmoor said:

 

I absolutely love this complete invented history. 

 

One very minor point, with reference to the statement in bold above.  Cereals would be grown on flatter, more fertile ground; it's very hard to cultivate crops on uneven rocky ground, even if you can get them to grow in the first place.  Note how East Anglian and Lincolnshire farms are overwhelmingly arable, while poor quality soils on uneven upland ground, like the Lake District or Snowdonia, aren't suitable for much more than grazing sheep.

 

Rob

cheers Rob, I’ll note that that bit is poorly explained and probably should be written as more stable ground, the eastern end of the island is relatively boggy and flat where water drains off the hills in that region whereas the west end aside from Selmond is rockier in the sense of it being firmer ground better for farming crops, it’s not snow Sonia levels of Rocky more Staffordshire moors level of rocky.

[Player of trains]

Hello everyone, been a bit hasn’t it, I hope folks are still keen to hear about my own slice of madness. Suffice to say Tumm has been going though a bit of a rework ms rewrite since I last posted to the point it’s not even called that anymore! and although I have posted some items in my workbench thread I’m going to try posting here much more often. 
 

First things first a new map. It’s still a heavy WIP but this is the final topographical shape of the island, I found some excellent bathymetric maps of Dogger Bank while looking at wind farm proposals which has really helped shape the final design.

 

 

The railway companies have had a bit of a rationalise and at the same time names and places have changed vastly but finally I have a good base to begin working off. 
 

As well as the main island map I’ve started more detailed drawings of maps including this one of Jutham, in time it’ll show the full extent of the capital town of the island and it’s railways and the immediate area. 
 

I’ve a lot more to post stock wise, all J15s should be terrified of what I have planned for them, for now I’m glad to be back.

 

many thanks

 

Alec

[Player of trains]

Ha it does actually help if I upload legible versions of the maps. 

 

You should find a clear one below, some zooming in might be required as its an A1 size canvas but the new topography is there and it, that is if Imgur hasn't compressed it into a postage stamp again. 

 

 

A lot of these names will be recognisable from the first map, with perhaps a few additions. 

Red are mainline railways and secondary routes, 

Blue being narrow gauges, industrial, 2' to 3'6"

Purple, the oddballs, Light railways, large tramways or in one case a military railway. 

 

And for good measure the Jutham regional map

 

 

This map largely shows the connection of railways into Jutham and I have a full history for this network at its height, but the principle routes are Chevrilshire & Southcoast into Kingsway station from the north, South Torrshire Railway in from the South East below Blackmere terminating on New Isle. then the Isle of Alnogg Central Railway to the industrial suburb of Goffard Holm from the North East. 

 

The Great Northern Navigation Railway encircles much of the town in a loop and functions like the Manchester Ship Canal railway serving several industries around the city but it also has shades of the Tyne electrics and the main loop is electrified with EMU units employed. 

 

Join me for next episode talking about Chevrilshire & South Coast Railway rolling stock, (don't leave J15 kitbashes alone, turns out they reproduce via osmosis).

[Player of trains]

C&SCR Class 1 Goods Locomotives

 

And here is that next episode of self multiplying J15s, I think its easier to break these long updates into several posts but please say if it would be easier as a single post? 

 

 

The Hornby J15 is a lovely model to kitbash into a viable looking fictional 0-6-0, I rebuilt the loco on the left back in December January earlier this year but my cat decided he didn't like it and dropped it off a shelf. It sat around for a while until I bought another cheaply off a friend, LNER No.7942. Both locos have new printed chimneys, smokebox doors with wing plates and new cab roofs. The running idea is that the gentleman who designed these was either an acquaintance or student to the Drummond siblings and picked up a penchant for them off of the pair.

 

 

The one I rebuilt back in December has my Beyer Peacock style six wheel 1500ish gallon tender, I decided for the 7942 kitbash it would get a four wheel 700 gallon tender for which I will explain in a moment. the design was adapted from my file for the Beyer tender although it might have taken an attempt or more to get the wheel spacing correct...

 

 

I do regret not taking more build photos of the two locos but I now have them approaching completion. Although I truly wish for better photography conditions. I keep saying I should built a photo plank and one day I will. 

 

 

 

The black 0-6-0 is still missing fittings like the whistle and safety valves, originally I had replaced the Ross valves of the model with Ramsbottom ones but I have since changed my mind on those and need to print some replacement Ross valves for the black loco. Evidence of its fall can be seen with the cracked buffer shanks, I am considering replacing the buffers with dumb ones for shunting at Somyard. 

 

Classifications 

 

Originally just called the Class 1, these saturated 0-6-0s were introduced by CME and Alnogg native Owen T Reed in 1885 alongside his team at Tetra, thirty of the class were built between 1885 and 1887 as well as an additional fifteen in 1891.

 

The Class 1A were a batch of seven built in 1899 upon the acquisition of the Gaerthorpe Valley Railway by the C&SCR, these were mechanically identical to the Class 1s but were fitted with four wheel 700 gallon tenders taken off seven ancient Sharp Stewart 0-6-0s that the C&SCR had flogged the GVR in 1878, and they were old then! The tenders were refitted and kept in use due to the sharp curves and small turntables of the GVR. The 1As were turned out in the distinctive passenger red as they were used as mixed traffic locos on the GVR metals. 

 

The Class 1Bs were regular class 1s refitted with vacuum brake gear from 1901 onwards, the 1As were included in this conversion and all existing locomotives were upgraded to 1B by 1904 but the 1A's did keep their own classification. 

 

The Class 1C are superheated rebuilds done just before 1914 with five of the 1B's from the 1891 batch being rebuilt with schmidt superheaters and extended smokeboxes to fit. Post war the remainder of the 1899 batch would be rebuilt with rebuilds completed by 1922. 

 

The class 1C is the last type I am yet to model depending on when I can next find a cheap J15, overall its a fun and simple kitbash and not too costly to do, I rather look forward to the day I can model a C&SCR shed and have these locos on roster. 

 

These goods locomotives were all names after hills and small mountains in the C&SCR's territory, the lighting is pretty poor as I've already lamented but the Gaerthorpe 0-6-0 has the name Finnoch Ven and the regular working loco will be taking the name Kibri Ven, a ven being the local Noggish word for Hill or large mound. (The original Alnogg Celts never were very creative with names).

 

Next up, the C&SCR wagon roster, Vans of every flavour, Open wagons, and bogie vans stuffed with Agaricus arvensis. 

 

Many thanks.,

 

Alec

Edited October 17, 2022 by Player of trains

[Player of trains]

C&SCR Goods Wagons. 

 

It's no use building two or more goods locomotives without anything to string behind them. British built imports are very common on the island, from all the usual builders, Metropolitan, Gloucester Wagon and Carriage and Birmingham RCWC. But the big companies on the island all did design and build their own wagons, as well as contracting out to Jutham Carriage, Wagon, Phaeton & Industrial Joiners, J.C.W.P.&.I.J or Jiffies for short. A local firm  based in Goffard Holm that all but monopolised most wagon and carriage building for the railways on the island. 

 

The wagons of the C&SCR are no exception with most being built at the company works in Tetre or at Jiffies to several designs up until grouping in 1939. 

 

Model wise these came about quite by accident, the plan was originally to use standard RCH wagon designs but I changed up a design I had from a friend for a 7mm scale Southwold Railway wagon. With a bit of tweaking I had a rather good looking open wagon with arched ends for tarpaulins (The north Saxonian climate is appalling)  and from there it has spawned a rapidly growing wagon fleet. The wagons in the fleet are mostly based off the range of wagons the Lancashire and Yorkshire operated, mostly down to the traffics being the same, the C&SCR and L&Y practically face each other from the Humber to the Jutham Channel but also the sheer amount of easily accessible info and works photos thanks to the L&YR society. 

 

 

The four plank mineral wagon and four plank drop side wagon, aside from some basic changes there wasn't much to change from the 7mm southwold wagon, I shrank and added the extra planks to make them chunky 4mm scale planks, adjusted the ironwork to suit and fitted buffers and hooks. They never stayed that way but I like wagons having red painted buffer heads, an early safety scheme, well intentioned but not that effective in the end. 

 

Coal is a mainstay of C&SCR traffic as well as various ores from the Gaerthope Vale mines, a glacial moraine with shallow seams of potash and barytes. The open wagons are just open wagons, nowt too special about them but a lot have wormed their way into private ownership.

 

 

I've finished two of the drop side opens so far, both for private owners. 

 

 

I have got about five more of the mineral wagons in varying stages of progression to all go into C&SCR traffic. 

 

Vans are a more specialist case and I've built one van around the same chassis and then adapted them further into different types for different traffics. 

 

 

 

C&SCR 8 Ton closed van

Livery: Battleship grey.

Use: Dry goods, general merchandise and stores.

 

 

C&SCR 8 Ton Meat Van

Livery: Pastel pink

Use: Seasonal meat traffic, poultry and general goods in off peak times.

 

 

C&SCR 8 Ton Dairy Van

Livery : Spilt Cream/Pastel Yellow

Use: Churn traffic for Cattle, Goat and Reindeer, cheese traffic and egg traffic. 

 

 

C&SCR 8 Ton Fish Van (chippy van)

Livery: Pastel blue

Use: Seasonal fish traffic, Seasonal crab traffic, Seaweed traffic. 

 

 

C&SCR 20 Ton Bogie Van/20 Ton vegetable van

Livery: Battleship grey, Pastel green 

Use: General goods, seasonal fruit, veg, grain and mushroom traffic. 

 

 

The bogie vans were actually the design that came first and all the other van bodies have been reverse engineered from them. They were inspired by the Guinness grain and later keg vans used over the Irish network, mine are largely used for the vegetable traffic and heavy goods use at other times of the year. Fruit and veg traffic is another mainstay of the C&SCR with the valleys and fens it runs though being a fertile strip of land between the Torrshire hills and sea. 

 

 

C&SCR Brake Van WIP

Livery: Varnished Teak or Red Oxide

Use: Portable tea stove, mobile post office, trumpet storage and occasional brake van

 

All of these vans have come together quite quickly being based around the same general parts and chassis, the plan is for the roofs with lateral rails to have tarpaulin centres like the L&YR practiced for loading in oversize loads.

 

I hope everyone is liking this sudden update dump, and could anyone suggest more varieties of wagons I could model? I am very much looking forward to modelling a very pastel rainbow coloured train and having someone turn their nose up before I tell them the prototype being the L&YR in the 1910s!  

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Player of trains

[Schooner]

11 minutes ago, Player of trains said:

I hope everyone is liking this sudden update dump

 

Yup! Bloody brilliant all round!

[mpeffers]

Very nice. Also acquired a J15 at a reasonable price recently with similar plans in mind. Was thinking of just changing the cab and some of the boiler fittings, but keep looking at the tender thinking it looks a little… distinctive.
 

 

[Player of trains]

39 minutes ago, mpeffers said:

Very nice. Also acquired a J15 at a reasonable price recently with similar plans in mind. Was thinking of just changing the cab and some of the boiler fittings, but keep looking at the tender thinking it looks a little… distinctive.
 

 

 

I agree, the GER Holden tenders are just a bit too distinctive, the body is ok but the wheel spacing is the distinctive part. They are only small bodies though, I think it could be possible to use some styrene and cut the frames and chassis up to make a four wheel tender frame instead?

[Edwardian]

This is a superb venture in every way. Brilliant in both conception and execution. 

[Corbs]

I don't like it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I love it.

[Player of trains]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

This is a superb venture in every way. Brilliant in both conception and execution. 

 

2 hours ago, Corbs said:

I love it.

 

Thank you both and not forgetting everyone interacting with these posts, Castle Aching, Annie's routes and the grimy NWR have always been some of my best inspirations so I'm very happy you're both enjoying, Especially for you Corbs as I will probably be putting in a particularly big transfer order soon for all these wagons and coaches too. But now for tonight's episode.

 

Gazelles, Stubbins & Lilac hues.

 

I've not just been working on goods locomotives for the C&SCR but its passenger stud too. I largely have its roster hemmed out in my mind and between 1900 and 1939 the company perused large tank engines over tender engines but for now I've focused on the pre 1900 locomotives, and what's a fictional pre grouping company without some Beyer Peacock 4-4-0s. 

 

C&SCR 'Gazelles' and 'Galloping Gazelles' Beyer Peacock 4-4-0s 

Built 1880 - Rebuilt 1912-1921

 

 

This design is still a heavy work in progress and was reworked from a publicly available model of a Furness Railway larger seagull, as the model stands it was eyeballed from the available photos of the M&GNJR 4-4-0s but I have since acquired drawings and I'll be reworking the model from those drawings. Known as Gazelles by the C&SCR engine crews despite being named nowhere near anything similar the idea is that these locomotives would have formed the backbone of express workings and summer tourist traffic from delivery in 1880 until around 1903 when the company would begin constructing large mixed traffic and passenger tanks of increasing absurdity. (I have small class of 4-8-4Ts planned, god help the model that'll donate its chassis to that). 

 

Finding the gazelles outperformed the company relegated them to branch lines in the Jend and Gaerthorpe valleys and even sold several off, one would find its way to the Grinnensey Light Railway but the GLR is a story for another time. Those that remained were extended the curtsey of being part of a rebuilding program initiated by Owen Reed and continued by his successor Sir, James Allan then successor to the Earldom of Rardwicke county. Under him the remaining Gazelles became the class 8 (probably going to change) and were heavily rebuilt with belpaire boilers and superheaters. Crews took to these now very spritely machines for their vintage and took to calling them the 'Galloping Gazelles' on account of the locos always ready to have the taps opened up despite their sedate branch line retirements. 

 

 

Model wise I have built one prototype already which runs on a cut down oxford rail Adams radial chassis. @Corbsrecent Sodor & Mainland No.6 which uses the same tender design is a good indicator of what I've been working towards. 

 

 

 

A few photos of it posed on Whiteacres, it nearly looks Edwardian without any of the colour lights!

 

 

The lilac livery has been one of my lesser brilliant ideas but I'm going to keep trying to make it work. 

 

 

It was under the artificial lights at the club that I decided I didn't like the lilac and I'll be trying a slightly darker shade of mauve. The loco is rather light on its wheels too, being rather front heavy so I will be cramming as much lead in it as possible to increase the traction although it did manage to haul seven clestory coaches and a mainline 57ft bogie brake

 

I do have more versions planned for these locomotives, I would rather like to have several members of the class streamlined. I would absolutely adore one built along similar lines to the French PLM Coupe-Vent 220 with a windcutter casing, of course there's no need for streamlining at all on a mainline so short but it looks great on the posters!

 

The Stubbins

 

I don't know where the Gaerthorpe crews came up with the name Stubbins from but its stuck to the class 4s like glue. 

 

 

I am a sucker for tiny 0-4-0 tender locos and I have wanted to model something akin to the NBR Wheatley 0-4-0s for a while now, also a heavy work in progress the Class 4s were developed as the smallest of the modern C&SCR locos. As I already mentioned the Gaerthorpe valley lines are a profitable but dense tangle of tightly laid tracks mostly laid directly over all plateways and pack horse roads. When the C&SCR finished acquiring the three companies in the vale it set about modernising the railways it now had at its control, its answer to the motley clapped out collection of mostly Sharp Stewart locomotives that had obtained was the Class 4. 

These are punchy chunky inside cylinder 0-4-0s with a good power to weight ratio allowing them to run on the lightest and tightest tracks in the vale.

 

I've not quite got a plan worked out for what chassis this model will use but it might well be a tender drive with a scratch built loco frame as I would absolutely love to have working inside rods and valve gear, models that pull that off are utterly mesmerising. 

 

There might well be a few other versions of these locos coming, a tank engine version is most plausible but also one without the recycled 700 gallon tender, I have been wondering what a North American inspired slope back tender would look like if anglicised for working in one of the islands hump yards.

 

Thanks for checking out this update folks, no where near close to running out with topics to discuss, I think I'll either be talking lamp codes or coaches depending on if the sorting office is open tomorrow, I may have taken advantage of Derail's 30% off sale on the Hornby coaches. 

 

Many thanks again.

 

Alec

[Annie]

Great to see your project back again Alec. I'm absolutely loving your freelance rolling stock and locomotive designs.

[Player of trains]

2 hours ago, Annie said:

Great to see your project back again Alec. I'm absolutely loving your freelance rolling stock and locomotive designs.

 

Thanks Annie its good to be back and posting, I've acquired a J70 over the interim hiatus and I admit I am greatly struggling to not borrow your new orchard sidings as a vignette on a layout. 

 

Tonight I've been finishing off brake vans two basic designs with verandas and one with ducketts and one without.

 

 

 

Don't mind Elvis, he's just my ergonomic measuring aid. I'll get this pair on print and I should hopefully have a full goods train to run at the club on friday night, albeit unpainted. I do need to add a few more details first like lamp irons and shunting pole hooks at least as well as the route disk slots.

 

The train identification on the island is something that I have been slowly simmering and I'm really looking forward to describing it. 

 

Thanks again.

 

Alec

[Annie]

1 minute ago, Player of trains said:

Thanks Annie its good to be back and posting, I've acquired a J70 over the interim hiatus and I admit I am greatly struggling to not borrow your new orchard sidings as a vignette on a layout. 

Borrow away, - I don't mind at all if you do.

A J70? (Clears throat, cough cough) Surely you mean a C53. 😉  If you're going to have a tram engine that means lots of roadside trackwork to go with it. 😀

Nice brake vans by the way.

[Player of trains]

16 minutes ago, Annie said:

Borrow away, - I don't mind at all if you do.

A J70? (Clears throat, cough cough) Surely you mean a C53. 😉  If you're going to have a tram engine that means lots of roadside trackwork to go with it. 😀

Nice brake vans by the way.

Well that depends on what the papers said, or didn’t say for that matter when it arrived, nobody is really sure how one ended up on the Grinnensey Light Railway and all the papers accidentally became kindling in the general managers greenhouse boiler, but it manages the bridge over Tarns Arch just fine and fits along the small quays of the Island just nice. 

[KeithMacdonald]

On 12/03/2021 at 14:23, Caley Jim said:

This thread has reminded me of an idea I once had for modelling the narrow gauge system on the little-know Scottish island of Inch.  From the harbour at Less nan Inch a branch line runs on a causeway to the slate quarries on the off shore islet of No' an Inch.  From Less nan Inch the main line goes to the main town of Inch then through Mair nan Inch and Inch na Bit to the peat extraction site at Inch na Hauf.  Lack of capital prevented the line from reaching the fishing port of Twa Inch on the other side of the island and also put paid to the proposals to develop a holiday resort at Fower Inch on  in the North of the island.  I never got round to drawing a map! 

Jim

 

@Caley Jim - Excellent!

 

I counted up all the parts of Inch. If I got it right, the game's a foot!

Or

Give them an Inch and they'll take a mile of narrow gauge railway.

[KeithMacdonald]

On 22/03/2021 at 10:37, Player of trains said:

The affect on the world wars is an interesting thing to consider. Really though nothing actually changes in my own canon, invading the island would be significantly difficult, England and later Britain defended it because it was once the ideal staging ground for an invasion but by the industrial revolution and certainly once the aviation age began it would get significantly more difficult to invade from the island, its not next door either, its in the middle of the North sea so even from mainland Europe an invasion is difficult.

 

@Player of trains - this is great stuff!

 

I wonder if you have investigated the fascinating hypothesis that the original language of the Isle of Alnogg (dating back to neolithic and megalithic times) is in fact the proto-language for both Old English and Frisian?

 

This would neatly solve the age-old academic bun-fight of which came first, Old English or Frisian. The "Alnogg Conundrum Cutter's Answer" is that neither came first, both are derived from Olde Alnoggian.

 

Examples of Olde Alnoggian can be found.

e.g. https://www.quora.com/How-similar-are-Frisian-and-English

[Player of trains]

10 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

@Player of trains - this is great stuff!

 

I wonder if you have investigated the fascinating hypothesis that the original language of the Isle of Alnogg (dating back to neolithic and megalithic times) is in fact the proto-language for both Old English and Frisian?

 

This would neatly solve the age-old academic bun-fight of which came first, Old English or Frisian. The "Alnogg Conundrum Cutter's Answer" is that neither came first, both are derived from Olde Alnoggian.

 

Examples of Olde Alnoggian can be found.

e.g. https://www.quora.com/How-similar-are-Frisian-and-English

 

Language is something I have been wanting to develop for a while, I was trying to find example of old Brittonic and went for old welsh for some loco names, I did not know anything about this bun-fight, Absolutely SMASHING!, thanks for bringing this to my attention Keith. That is a brilliant Quora thread and might really help rounding out some more words and place names. 

As it is the proto language is nothing more than a few words right now; Ven for hill, Goul for rocky crag etc

[KeithMacdonald]

This is clearly a fascinating "what-if?" subject area that several others have tuned into.

e.g.

https://external-preview.redd.it/Vtlhq3JLAGbpY1uTQA8l971eD_VtYHyr2eo5vNRWenY.jpg?auto=webp&s=ef397e276bd167daa4fda33d0c24309c7e51a53b

 

 

Also:

https://www.reddit.com/r/imaginarymaps/comments/6m9xrc/map_of_doggerland_an_island_nation_in_the_north/

 

 

[Caley Jim]

14 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

Give them an Inch and they'll take a mile of narrow gauge railway.

The gauge would, of course, have been a Scots ell.

 

Jim