The Night Mail

[SM42]

12 minutes ago, AndyID said:

 

Luck has nothing to do with it. What is required is a strategic plan 😀

 

Oh, and granite is radioactive. It's worth a shot anyway.

 

 

 

 

The luck is when the plan isn't the first casualty of kitchen combat and DH isn't either

 

Andy

Edited April 7, 2023 by SM42

[br2975]

11 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

 

Some years ago we were assisting at the scene of a traffic accident where a young woman was badly injured so, being a nurse as well as a first aider, Jill was tending to the girl whilst I was stopping traffic. First on the scene after us was a policemen who, when he found out that Jill was a nurse, advised her that it was a bad idea for her to be involved as since she was a health professional she could be sued if anything went wrong. Despite that she has always tried to help.

 

.

I spent almost 40 years in policing.

.

30 years as a 'warranted' officer (current speak), and half of that as an elected staff association representative.

.

The primary function of a police officer is "the protection of life, and property etc etc"

.

This includes administering first aid as and when.

.

Now, there are two things that are likely to effect the anal retention of a police officer.

.

1..... a death in custody,  where an arrested person dies whilst on their way to a station, whilst in custody there, or shortly after release from custody, or

2.....a death after contact, where a person who hasn't been arrested, but has been involved in some police interaction dies during that interaction, or soon afterwards .

.

Both of which will bring down the investigative maelstrom that is the Independent Office of Police Conduct and will subject all officers involved, however minimally to months, even years of worry.

.

For example

My daughter, a serving officer,  once took an infant in 'cardiac arrest' to the U.H.W. Cardiff in the back of a smelly dirty police personnel carrier as there were no ambulances available, and administeredcCPR and first aid during the hair raising journey.

The child survived.

.

Despite her best intentions, had the child died, she, and the van driver, together with any other involved police officers would be thoroughly investigated by the IOPC as this would now constitute a 'death after contact' - where experience dictates the officers suffer months, even years of worry and uncertainty.

As a 'staff association representative' I was a 'misconduct friend' and  would assist and advise officers during such misconduct investigations.

Take it from me the I ( for Independent )  in IOPC does mean 'independent' to the extent that their intrusive investigations and recommendations are totally unsympathetic towards officers who tried their best, but may have got it wrong due to lack of training, or a wrong split second decision.................they look for 'show trials' in order to justify their existence.

.

So thorough is an IOPC investigation that any minimal mistakes such as incorrect notes, incomplete vehicle log books, breach of speed limits or incivility - none of which resulted in the 'death after contact' will result in the IOPC demanding the officer's force take disciplinary action - which in turn leaves a sceptical public saying " see it was the police's fault' .

Such 'deaths in custody' or deaths after contact' then leave the officer, and his/her force open to disciplinary, and civil action.

.

Whereas the ambulance service, who continually fail to attend emergency calls will walk away scot free.

And any number of persons have died as a result of the unavailablity of ambulances and paramedics.

In addition, when a patient dies in an ambulance, or in A&E after arriving by ambulance, only the usual 'sudden death procedure' is adopted on behalf of H.M. Coroner - there is NO investigation of the ambulance crew, paramedics or A&E staff in the way the police are investigated. 

.

Hence the concern of police officers at the recent possibility of them being 'forced' to stand in for striking paramedics and ambulance staff.

.

Therefore, to me, having 'been on the inside' for 40 years, and experienced any number of such investigations and litigious actions,  I can understand what caused the officer to make that comment.

.

 

Edited April 7, 2023 by br2975

[Tony_S]

My GP brother in law was driving to work one morning when someone stepped off the pavement into the side of his car. They got clipped by the mirror. Anyway he gets out and goes round to see the man on the road next to the car. The man’s wife is yelling at  the poor man telling him he was a silly old fool, you never look, just walk out etc. Ian (brother in law) does whatever assessment doctors do when the man says “hello, Doc, I was just on my way to the surgery to make an appointment “. Someone said they had phoned for an ambulance and the police who both turned up quickly. The “victim” said he was fine but Ian said he would be happier if the paramedics checked him out. They took him off to A&E. The poor police officer was getting confused at this point about how the doctor had arrived in the scene until Ian said he was driving the car that his patient had collided with. The man popped into the surgery that afternoon to say he was fine and made an appointment for whatever he originally intended.  

[Happy Hippo]

17 minutes ago, br2975 said:

 

Take it from me the I ( for Independent )  in IOPC does mean 'independent' to the extent that their intrusive investigations and recommendations are totally unsympathetic towards officers who tried their best, but may have got it wrong due to lack of training, or a wrong split second decision.................they look for 'show trials' in order to justify their existence.

 

Sounds very much like the investigations where members of the Army are still being pursued about deaths that have occurred 'in contact'.

 

Yet these deaths were only a small percentage of the deaths of other soldiers, police officers and many more civilians caused by sectarian violence, perpetrated by extremists many of whom are now exempt from prosecution under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement.

 

No such security blanket exists for former soldiers, and the support that they should have expected to receive from the MoD has been non existent.

 

Ironically the lead on these investigations is the Police Service of Northern Ireland (ex Royal Ulster Constabulary) who at the time needed those very soldiers to help in trying to keep the peace as well as having soldiers watch their backs.

 

Brian is quite right about these investigations causing immense stress on the individuals involved.

 

An old friend was with 1 Para on Bloody Sunday.  The intense pressure he was put under over the uncertainty of what was going to happen after the Savile inquiry , yet this was a man who had done nothing wrong. He was deeply troubled by this, as at the time he was convinced they had been fired on by IRA snipers.  This was refuted at the enquiry,  and as he was already suffering from depression,  allowed him to believe that the finger was pointed at everyone in the battalion, and they would all be held accountable. Sadly he could only find  comfort in alcohol and hit the bottle very hard.  This unsurprisingly led to even deeper depression and a stomach ulcer for good measure.

 

As it turned out, he was blameless, but mentally he was a wreck and he never really recovered from the strain he'd been under.

 

I firmly believe this contributed to his eventual death a few years later.

[SM42]

12 hours ago, rockershovel said:

1) Brexit, and consequent respective value of £ v €. Their remittances are sent in €, so a drop in exchange rate amounts to a pay cut.

 

2) Brexit again - their children if born in UK, don't have Polish nationality

 

3) They can no more live on their wages here, than the locals they displace and return home when they have accumulated a useful sum in Polish terms

 

4) training opportunities here apparently far exceed those at home. Personnel turnover subsequently is about what you might expect. 

 

5) I can't speak from particular experience of Poland, but as a general comment on my experience of FSU countries corruption and nepotism is endemic. I was openly told on numerous occasions that a local graduate position commanded a bribe of around a years' salary and the market in promotions was commensurate. No 2 Son told me a few things about this relating to the JLR production line in Slovenia. The incentive to go elsewhere, establish yourself there and either return as an external recruit or for a foreign company is obvious. 

 

I was going to let this go but it's been bugging me as some things are not quite correct in my opinion 

 

1. Poland doesn't use the Euro. 

After 2006 when I first visited, the exchange rate fell from 7- 8 PLN to the pound to between 5 and 6 and apart from a blip in 2008 where it was down towards 4, it has by and large remained in the 5.2 - 5.7 range.  It's currently around 5.25

The exchange rates available  in the UK are worse, but if you wanted to send money out here ( if you have any left) there are  banks that let you do so in Sterling and you'll get a better rate when exchanging through them later.

 

2. Children of Polish parents can obtain  Polish nationality. 

A friend's son has got his Polish passport through his grandfather being Polish.

There are also very well organised educational facilities for Polish parents to keep their UK born kids up on the language and culture, although these have been hit hard by the pandemic and rising costs. 

Our Polish Saturday school was forced to close last year due to it being no longer financially viable. Many parents just took their kids to the next nearest 

 

 

3. Displace is a very  devisive choice of word.

 

It seems odd that farmers can't get UK workers to get up at 5am and do a full day's hard graft for above minimum wage that other nationalities seem quite happy to do. 

 

Sorry to say it, but us Brits are getting lazier and it's starting to rub off on some non British workers too. 

 

A Polish friend gave up a well paid  shift managers job as the mainly UK workforce wouldn't do any productive work in the first hour (  In fact on an 8 hour day she reckoned on about 4.5 hours work would be done with the rest spent drinking tea and chatting) and around 25% of what was produced was not up to spec. She could see the company was losing money through  poor quality output that was rejected by the customer, the work force didn't care and couldn't be made to care so she got out before it drove her mad

 

It is true they face the same financial pressure as everyone else, but the reasons I've heard from Polish acquaintances who have gone back to the motherland is that they have had a better offer, with the bonus they will be closer to family ( ageing parents mainly)  and Brexit and its negative connotations for the  perception of being welcome.

 

Most I know have got past the initial shock and the barbed comments have abated but still feel the atmosphere has changed permanently 

 

 Others have gone elsewhere in Europe for better paid work. Some friends are moving to Germany this summer for that very reason and of course they can without a lot of paperwork. 

 

 

Many have also remained in the UK as they have built a life here, have mortgages, kids in schools, friends and whilst one day dream of returning  have no intention to do so soon. 

 

4.  Can't comment on this. I have no information to compare 

 

5. I have no evidence on this either, but nepotism certainly happens everywhere.  Corruption, who knows?

 

Andy

 

 

 

[AndyID]

The situation has not arisen where MrsID was called upon to assist someone and I sure she would take necessary steps to do what she could to preserve life but she is slightly conflicted about it. She is/was a state certified general nurse, midwife and health-visitor in the UK (not quite as innocent as you might imagine from the pic I posted from our wedding day 🙂) and a registered nurse in the US although she has now allowed her US license to lapse.

 

The question is would her training and experience increase her liability in the event that her efforts proved futile?

 

BTW she has informed me that she will happily perform an emergency tracheotomy on me should the need arise 😄

[Northmoor]

43 minutes ago, SM42 said:

It seems odd that farmers can't get UK workers to get up at 5am and do a full day's hard graft for above minimum wage that other nationalities seem quite happy to do. 

 

Sorry to say it, but us Brits are getting lazier and it's starting to rub off on some non British workers too. 

 

A Polish friend gave up a well paid  shift managers job as the mainly UK workforce wouldn't do any productive work in the first hour (  In fact on an 8 hour day she reckoned on about 4.5 hours work would be done with the rest spent drinking tea and chatting) and around 25% of what was produced was not up to spec. She could see the company was losing money through  poor quality output that was rejected by the customer, the work force didn't care and couldn't be made to care so she got out before it drove her mad

 

My first proper paid job (summer holidays after Poly Yr1, over 30yrs ago) started at 0600 at the creamery which was about 13 miles from home in rural Wales.  It was about 25 minutes drive (deserted lanes/roads at that hour) but I was on the clock so if late, it was noticed.  I was paid £120/wk basic for 5 days, 8hr shifts of often pretty hard physical work, but over 7 weeks ended up doing plenty of overtime - 1-2hrs every day - with plenty of Saturdays and Sundays, such that I averaged £200/wk.

 

I can be lazy and often struggle with concentration if work doesn't interest me, but have always been grateful of that first real experience of work; the money was just a bonus to me as I got a decent student grant and my parents were supporting me through Poly.  I worked though with people who were living all year round on wages of not much more; it focusses the mind seeing first hand how hard some people work to keep a roof over their heads.

[jjb1970]

The problem with investigative processes is that it applies a mountain of analysis, often consuming hundreds or thousands of hours of work by 'experts' to consider a decision which had to be made in a split second in a stressful situation without really highlighting that context. Anyone can be an expert after the event, and let's be honest, I suspect all of are guilty of it. While I think it's fair for people to face consequences for egregious acts, I also tend to think 'there but for the grace of god went I' when I read about some things.

 

I used to do some accident investigation work. Many maritime administrations lack the capacity and capability to do it themselves so will contract with organizations like classification societies for technical support. I always had a different attitude to systemic failure and failure of an individual in the moment. For example, if a design had an inherent fault, went through a design review and approval process which should have picked it up (I had cases where design calculations were obviously wrong, and had gone through multiple reviews and been approved, begging the question whether everyone involved was inept or whether all the reviews had just stamped the original calculations without checking them?) then that's a systemic issue which shouldn't happen. Even then it's too easy to blame an individual, what sort of organization allows an individual to make safety critical decisions with no review process, and what were people in class and maritime Administrations doing ? I use maritime as an example because that's what I know. On the other hand, how many of us have never done something stupid? I tend to find those most judgemental have never been in a position which demands snap decisions under severe stress and for which consequences are severe.

 

I used to get exasperated by the ease by which people are dismissed as stupid. A person may have made a stupid decision, that's not the same as being stupid. A lapse of judgement in the moment can happen to anyone. In cases I was involved with I had some very pointed discussions when people started making very dismissive statements about individuals because in each case the individuals concerned had received training which would be accepted as suitable and had a record of performing their duties to a perfectly good standard. Why do people do stupid things? That's a huge question, but I really don't think the standard responses are that useful. If a person was trained to a good standard and had good technical knowledge and the employer had good procedures in place why would demanding more training and more procedures be the answer?

 

And in the case of soldiers and law enforcement officers it's too easy to focus on those individuals and ignore why they were in certain predicaments in the first place. Politicians are great at directing faeces downwards and directing the ire for decisions they have made.

[jamie92208]

Some very interesting comments above there.  I have been there making some of those quick decisions, fortunately in most cases no one died and with hindsight I mostly made the right decision.  So did most of my colleagues.  One of the worst was at an ice covered lake where one girl and 2 would be rescuers had gone through the ice. I'll equipped firemen and a few civilians were wading in the lake to try and find them.  Could see that hypothermia was setting in and that there would soon be more fatalities.  I decided call the rescue attempts offoto save more lives. I even had to persuade the ranking fire officer thatwe had to do it.. We did ain effect wrote off the three victims..  Fortunately no one ever questioned the decision.  However in other situations did I wonder whether the people talking about stress and decision makingnhad any real idea what they were talking about.  

 

What was very apparent tmeoin later years was that the older senior officers who knew in my early years had years of experience in the lower ranks  and could make quick decisions easily based on that experience. Sadly,in later years, too many had been over promoted too quickly and had no experience base on which to make such decisions.  The system should not put such people in that position. 

 

Jamie

[SM42]

We all do stupid. We do it quite often and get away with it most of the time.  It's part of the human condition.

 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. 

 

There is a very good line in the Hidden report on Clapham, that I keep for just such an occasion, the exact wording I forget, but goes something like:

 

There is no action or inaction  that cant be made to look incorrect after the event.

 

I always wonder why there is so much emphasis put on human failings and the need to do something about the individual by the people who weren't there and have had several weeks to get all the information from witnesses that were not available or not known at the time. 

 

I have no problem with these issues being investigated. 

How else would we learn?

 

What I do have issue with is trying to apportion blame  to people acting in good faith with a fraction  of the information and time  any investigation had. 

 

Media reporting doesn't help, nor does the ambulance chasing legal culture that have developed.

 

It gets to the point where people are afraid to make decisions but are loathe not to and always have one eye on the inquiry rather than what needs doing now.

 

Any investigation should be  what happened, why did it happen  how can we do better to avoid a recurrence or react better next time.

 

Andy

Edited April 8, 2023 by SM42

[polybear]

9 hours ago, AndyID said:

 

Of course you could try playing it the other way. Demand you only get the very best of everything and a bunch of bits you can't possibly use.

 

When you get the insane quotation your response is "Well there goes the World Cruise I had planned as a surprise on our anniversary."

 

Mind you that could possibly backfire so mind how you go.

 

Cunning Bear would suggest changing any mention of a "World Cruise" to "Dream Holiday".  The fact that "Dream Holiday" means a week firing and driving Steam Locos on the NYMR is a mere technicality.

Also be very cunning and secretly report all credit and debit cards lost just prior to the Kitchen Showroom visit; this'll mean a deposit can't be paid (the providers will cancel them) and DH will have a weekend to work on Mrs. H with comments such as "Well, it's an awful lot of money....do we REALLY need to spend all that....."

 

9 hours ago, br2975 said:

.

I spent almost 40 years in policing.

.

30 years as a 'warranted' officer (current speak), and half of that as an elected staff association representative.

.

The primary function of a police officer is "the protection of life, and property etc etc"

.

This includes administering first aid as and when.

.

Now, there are two things that are likely to effect the anal retention of a police officer.

.

1..... a death in custody,  where an arrested person dies whilst on their way to a station, whilst in custody there, or shortly after release from custody, or

2.....a death after contact, where a person who hasn't been arrested, but has been involved in some police interaction dies during that interaction, or soon afterwards .

.

Both of which will bring down the investigative maelstrom that is the Independent Office of Police Conduct and will subject all officers involved, however minimally to months, even years of worry.

.

For example

My daughter, a serving officer,  once took an infant in 'cardiac arrest' to the U.H.W. Cardiff in the back of a smelly dirty police personnel carrier as there were no ambulances available, and administeredcCPR and first aid during the hair raising journey.

The child survived.

.

Despite her best intentions, had the child died, she, and the van driver, together with any other involved police officers would be thoroughly investigated by the IOPC as this would now constitute a 'death after contact' - where experience dictates the officers suffer months, even years of worry and uncertainty.

As a 'staff association representative' I was a 'misconduct friend' and  would assist and advise officers during such misconduct investigations.

Take it from me the I ( for Independent )  in IOPC does mean 'independent' to the extent that their intrusive investigations and recommendations are totally unsympathetic towards officers who tried their best, but may have got it wrong due to lack of training, or a wrong split second decision.................they look for 'show trials' in order to justify their existence.

.

So thorough is an IOPC investigation that any minimal mistakes such as incorrect notes, incomplete vehicle log books, breach of speed limits or incivility - none of which resulted in the 'death after contact' will result in the IOPC demanding the officer's force take disciplinary action - which in turn leaves a sceptical public saying " see it was the police's fault' .

Such 'deaths in custody' or deaths after contact' then leave the officer, and his/her force open to disciplinary, and civil action.

.

Whereas the ambulance service, who continually fail to attend emergency calls will walk away scot free.

And any number of persons have died as a result of the unavailablity of ambulances and paramedics.

In addition, when a patient dies in an ambulance, or in A&E after arriving by ambulance, only the usual 'sudden death procedure' is adopted on behalf of H.M. Coroner - there is NO investigation of the ambulance crew, paramedics or A&E staff in the way the police are investigated. 

.

Hence the concern of police officers at the recent possibility of them being 'forced' to stand in for striking paramedics and ambulance staff.

.

Therefore, to me, having 'been on the inside' for 40 years, and experienced any number of such investigations and litigious actions,  I can understand what caused the officer to make that comment.

.

 

 

That's possibly one of the finest Rants I've ever read on here (and ER) and very informative too.

 

7 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

Sounds very much like the investigations where members of the Army are still being pursued about deaths that have occurred 'in contact'.

 

Yet these deaths were only a small percentage of the deaths of other soldiers, police officers and many more civilians caused by sectarian violence, perpetrated by extremists many of whom are now exempt from prosecution under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement.

 

No such security blanket exists for former soldiers, and the support that they should have expected to receive from the MoD has been non existent.

 

 

Whoever in Government agreed to that clause in the GFA deserves shooting.

 

7 hours ago, AndyID said:

The situation has not arisen where MrsID was called upon to assist someone and I sure she would take necessary steps to do what she could to preserve life but she is slightly conflicted about it. She is/was a state certified general nurse, midwife and health-visitor in the UK (not quite as innocent as you might imagine from the pic I posted from our wedding day 🙂) and a registered nurse in the US although she has now allowed her US license to lapse.

 

The question is would her training and experience increase her liability in the event that her efforts proved futile?

 

BTW she has informed me that she will happily perform an emergency tracheotomy on me should the need arise 😄

 

Bear's SiL is a Nurse and I was less than impressed when she said she'd not help in case she was sued.

Boss's daughter arrived at the scene of a bad car smash early one morning - the FB were already there and working on someone who was in a bad way so she offered her services (she was a Theatre Scrub Nurse) on condition that "she was never there" - the Chief happily agreed.

 

3 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

The problem with investigative processes is that it applies a mountain of analysis, often consuming hundreds or thousands of hours of work by 'experts' to consider a decision which had to be made in a split second in a stressful situation without really highlighting that context. Anyone can be an expert after the event, and let's be honest, I suspect all of are guilty of it. While I think it's fair for people to face consequences for egregious acts, I also tend to think 'there but for the grace of god went I' when I read about some things.

 

Such a situation is portrayed very well in the Film "Sully" - about the forced landing of an airliner in the Hudson River; IIRC they tried to hang him out to dry (driven by the Insurance Companies I think, who were all trying to avoid liability).

Whilst Simulations performed at the Airbus Training Centre Europe in Toulouse showed that Flight 1549 could have made it back to LaGuardia had that manoeuvre begun immediately after the bird strike. However, Sully pointed out that such scenarios both neglected the time necessary for the pilots to understand and assess the situation, and risked the possibility of a crash within a densely populated area.  It also became apparent (IIRC) that it took rather a lot of attempts on the simulator to achieve a successful outcome - and of course the crews flying the simulator (a) knew exactly what was coming, and (b) had the opportunity to practice.

 

1 hour ago, jamie92208 said:

What was very apparent to me in later years was that the older senior officers who knew in my early years had years of experience in the lower ranks  and could make quick decisions easily based on that experience. Sadly, in later years, too many had been over promoted too quickly and had no experience base on which to make such decisions.  The system should not put such people in that position. 

 

Jamie

 

A friend's Daughter is a fairly recently qualified Nurse; in no time at all she'd become a (Deputy?) Ward Sister in charge of a Ward, then a Ward Manager.  It horrified me that she'd been promoted so quickly; my friend couldn't see it - "she's a very good nurse" he'd say.  Good she may be, but without the experience.  I suspect that it's a common situation in many hospitals now as they struggle to find and retain staff.

[Happy Hippo]

1 hour ago, polybear said:

Such a situation is portrayed very well in the Film "Sully" - about the forced landing of an airliner in the Hudson River; IIRC they tried to hang him out to dry (driven by the Insurance Companies I think, who were all trying to avoid liability).

Whilst Simulations performed at the Airbus Training Centre Europe in Toulouse showed that Flight 1549 could have made it back to LaGuardia had that manoeuvre begun immediately after the bird strike. However, Sully pointed out that such scenarios both neglected the time necessary for the pilots to understand and assess the situation, and risked the possibility of a crash within a densely populated area.  It also became apparent (IIRC) that it took rather a lot of attempts on the simulator to achieve a successful outcome - and of course the crews flying the simulator (a) knew exactly what was coming, and (b) had the opportunity to practice.

Thanks for this comment, as I was going to post this you tube video, and it now seems more appropriate:

 

P51 Mustang engine failure on take off:  

 

 

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by Happy Hippo

[DenysW]

22 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

as since she was a health professional she could be sued if anything went wrong

My daughter the nurse tells me you can be struck off the nursing register if you do not try to help, as well.

[Northmoor]

4 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

I used to do some accident investigation work. Many maritime administrations lack the capacity and capability to do it themselves so will contract with organizations like classification societies for technical support. I always had a different attitude to systemic failure and failure of an individual in the moment. For example, if a design had an inherent fault, went through a design review and approval process which should have picked it up (I had cases where design calculations were obviously wrong, and had gone through multiple reviews and been approved, begging the question whether everyone involved was inept or whether all the reviews had just stamped the original calculations without checking them?) then that's a systemic issue which shouldn't happen. Even then it's too easy to blame an individual, what sort of organization allows an individual to make safety critical decisions with no review process, and what were people in class and maritime Administrations doing ? I use maritime as an example because that's what I know. On the other hand, how many of us have never done something stupid? I tend to find those most judgemental have never been in a position which demands snap decisions under severe stress and for which consequences are severe.

You've described some of the main findings of the Haddon-Cave enquiry into the Nimrod crash in Afghanistan.  Sir Charles' summary presentation should be compulsory reading to every engineer in the early stages of their career.  I would never have believed that as an engineer, I could learn so much from a lawyer.

 

As for blaming/not blaming individuals, the reporting of the Great Heck accident seemed to do the opposite of normal, where there was a lot of sympathy towards the Land Rover driver, of the "It could have easily been any one of us" variety.  If Anyone of Us would be so negligent as to stay up all night and have less than two hours sleep before doing a long car journey, drive a vehicle that may not have been in roadworthy condition to tow another vehicle, then clearly there a lot of people out there with a lot to learn about taking responsibility for their own safety and that of others.

[Oldddudders]

11 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

As for blaming/not blaming individuals, the reporting of the Great Heck accident seemed to do the opposite of normal, where there was a lot of sympathy towards the Land Rover driver, of the "It could have easily been any one of us" variety.  If Anyone of Us would be so negligent as to stay up all night and have less than two hours sleep before doing a long car journey, drive a vehicle that may not have been in roadworthy condition to tow another vehicle, then clearly there a lot of people out there with a lot to learn about taking responsibility for their own safety and that of others.

Since my former boss, who had been Project Director for ECML Electrification, was hospitalised after Great Heck, although I think he recovered, I have little sympathy for the errant driver. Still less because I have owned a couple of Landrovers, and regard them as requiring extra concentration by comparison with contemporary cars. But then one still sees plenty of people on the phone while driving, so the self-steering car is obviously already with us.....

[Compound2632]

12 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

I've a feeling that a considerable amount of domestic friction may ensue.

 

Only if you offer to do the installation yourself - plenty of sanding required, I'm sure.

[rockershovel]

11 hours ago, SM42 said:

 

I was going to let this go but it's been bugging me as some things are not quite correct in my opinion 

 

1. Poland doesn't use the Euro. 

After 2006 when I first visited, the exchange rate fell from 7- 8 PLN to the pound to between 5 and 6 and apart from a blip in 2008 where it was down towards 4, it has by and large remained in the 5.2 - 5.7 range.  It's currently around 5.25

The exchange rates available  in the UK are worse, but if you wanted to send money out here ( if you have any left) there are  banks that let you do so in Sterling and you'll get a better rate when exchanging through them later.

 

2. Children of Polish parents can obtain  Polish nationality. 

A friend's son has got his Polish passport through his grandfather being Polish.

There are also very well organised educational facilities for Polish parents to keep their UK born kids up on the language and culture, although these have been hit hard by the pandemic and rising costs. 

Our Polish Saturday school was forced to close last year due to it being no longer financially viable. Many parents just took their kids to the next nearest 

 

 

3. Displace is a very  devisive choice of word.

 

It seems odd that farmers can't get UK workers to get up at 5am and do a full day's hard graft for above minimum wage that other nationalities seem quite happy to do. 

 

Sorry to say it, but us Brits are getting lazier and it's starting to rub off on some non British workers too. 

 

A Polish friend gave up a well paid  shift managers job as the mainly UK workforce wouldn't do any productive work in the first hour (  In fact on an 8 hour day she reckoned on about 4.5 hours work would be done with the rest spent drinking tea and chatting) and around 25% of what was produced was not up to spec. She could see the company was losing money through  poor quality output that was rejected by the customer, the work force didn't care and couldn't be made to care so she got out before it drove her mad

 

It is true they face the same financial pressure as everyone else, but the reasons I've heard from Polish acquaintances who have gone back to the motherland is that they have had a better offer, with the bonus they will be closer to family ( ageing parents mainly)  and Brexit and its negative connotations for the  perception of being welcome.

 

Most I know have got past the initial shock and the barbed comments have abated but still feel the atmosphere has changed permanently 

 

 Others have gone elsewhere in Europe for better paid work. Some friends are moving to Germany this summer for that very reason and of course they can without a lot of paperwork. 

 

 

Many have also remained in the UK as they have built a life here, have mortgages, kids in schools, friends and whilst one day dream of returning  have no intention to do so soon. 

 

4.  Can't comment on this. I have no information to compare 

 

5. I have no evidence on this either, but nepotism certainly happens everywhere.  Corruption, who knows?

 

Andy

 

 

 

I wouldn't go too far with detailed comparison, I don't know Poland, only some Poles. 

 

You are right, Poland doesn't use the Euro... so that remains true in the generality, but incorrect in the specific.

 

Poles living in UK need UK level incomes. There is an established community here in Peterborough doing whatever they do. They mostly have degree level educations in STEM subjects, speak English, play football and go to the speedway.. there's no reason they wouldn't fit in if they wanted to. They would hardly be the first, most East Anglian towns have Polish and Italian communities dating from WW2 and the Baltic Trade in East Anglian ports was always busy. 

 

I do notice that the agency construction and agricultural workers are a different population now, Bulgarian and Romanian. 

 

Displace. Yes... major local employers started using foreign agencies employing foreign workers. It's a contentious subject but local employers often now want Polish or Romanian speakers. My current employer has supervisors employed to manage non-English speaking labour. It also circumvents the difficult issue of IR35, a wholly home-brewed problem but part of the overall "low wage casual labour" scenario. When you are losing out on local work because you only speak English, what would YOU call it? 

 

It's probably true that a lot of English workers simply no longer care, and why should they? They have lost job security and prospects. They can't afford housing. The government doesn't appear to care about them in return. They are more concerned about maintaining their benefit claims, which pay their actual living costs in many cases, than casual work with in many cases, significant hidden costs like local accomodation. They gained little or nothing from the EU in many cases... I certainly didn't, for all my travels and all my dealings with European companies. 

 

Rightly or wrongly, the media are spreading the idea that the EU are making life difficult for us. That doesn't help. 

 

FWIW, my personal view is that we missed a major opportunity by not having a Referendum over the Maastricht Treaty (it's significant that the name itself means nothing to the British, although like most EU treaties the name carries significant implications). We could have had a serious discussion of what we wanted from the EU and the nature of our relationship with them, instead of the present position. General de Gaulle predicted the present scenario long ago... he wasn't wrong. 

 

 

 

 

[Welchester]

On 07/04/2023 at 10:49, rockershovel said:

Brexit again - their children if born in UK, don't have Polish nationality

 

11 hours ago, SM42 said:

Children of Polish parents can obtain  Polish nationality. 

A friend's son has got his Polish passport through his grandfather being Polish.

 

Since 1983 being born in the UK doesn't give you British nationality unless one of your parents is a UK national.

[polybear]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Only if you offer to do the installation yourself - plenty of sanding required, I'm sure.

 

Bear can give DH a few pointers should he wish to build a new kitchen himself and save oodles of tokens in the process....

Dave?  Dave??

Anyone seen Dave?  He seems to have gone AWOL....

[Happy Hippo]

14 minutes ago, polybear said:

 

Bear can give DH a few pointers should he wish to build a new kitchen himself and save oodles of tokens in the process....

Dave?  Dave??

Anyone seen Dave?  He seems to have gone AWOL....

 

He's been persuaded to go kitchen shopping!

[Tony_S]

1 hour ago, Welchester said:

 

 

Since 1983 being born in the UK doesn't give you British nationality unless one of your parents is a UK national.

Our son was born in 1992. I have one great grandparent born in Ireland but it was so long ago it doesn’t count, and everyone else was born in Britain. I did once research Mum’s side of the family for her older brother but he told me to stop immediately when it looked as if one of their ancestors had come from Wales! Anyway my son had one British born parent and two British born grandparents. His Mum and her parents were naturalised British Citizens with current British passports. So when we applied for Matthew’s first passport in about 1995, it shouldn’t have been a problem. We must have had a very awkward person dealing with the application. It went back and forth a few times with requests for more information and the final query was about when Aditi’s parents had got married in India. No idea why, totally irrelevant for the child’s application. 
Tony

[SM42]

We have just returned from the Easter basket blessing at church. 

 

I was a little bit early, so sat by the car park entrance to await the arrival of Mrs SM42 from her parents where she had been helping prepare  the baskets. 

 

Chaos does  not begin  to describe the traffic. 

 

Cars parked down each side of the street.  Cars stopping in the middle of the road so two healthy adults could get out and then parking 20 ft further along the road. 

 

Angry nuns in a Fiat Panda blowing the horn as the gap twice the width of their car was too narrow for them. They were then blocking the traffic blocking the car they were blowing their horn at. 

 

Hilarious stuff and great entertainment.

 

It's probably been like that since 9 this morning with blessings every 15 minutes or so.  Its probably still going on now

 

Meanwhile, numerous places in the carpark went unfilled as it was just to far too cross the road.

 

This is one reason why I didn't drive past the church this morning en route to the cake shop, but went the long way round

 

Andy

Edited April 8, 2023 by SM42

[zarniwhoop]

9 hours ago, SM42 said:

There is a very good line in the Hidden report on Clapham, that I keep for just such an occasion, the exact wording I forget, but goes something like:

 

There is no action or inaction  that cant be made to look incorrect after the event.

Thanks for that, the exact wording can be found on page 147 (170th page of the PDF) at https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoT_Hidden001.pdf

 

[AndyID]

4 hours ago, SM42 said:

This is one reason why I didn't drive past the church this morning en route to the cake shop, but went the long way round

 

No booze but cakes OK? Hmm......

 

😄

[SM42]

10 minutes ago, AndyID said:

 

No booze but cakes OK? Hmm......

 

😄

 

Cakes and booze tomorrow. 

 

Easter day is when you let it all go. 

 

Easter breakfast at the SiL's tomorrow will probably be about a kilo of pork products and eggs each. 

 

Dinner at ours later rounded off with cake and vodka 

 

It is also an early celebration  of Mrs SM42's birthday next week 

 

However as we have to return to Blighty on Monday  ( work Tuesday ☹️) I won't be drinking much at all. 

 

Andy