The Night Mail

[polybear]

This makes for interesting reading:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914

 

 

 

[Northmoor]

35 minutes ago, polybear said:

This makes for interesting reading:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914

 

Others mentioned about how the USN detected the implosion of "Titan", probably the evolution of SOSUS:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOSUS 

[BoD]

1 hour ago, polybear said:

This makes for interesting reading:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914

 

 

 

I saw that earlier and thought ‘blimey’. Or words to the effect.

 

I’m sure I have read somewhere that those travelling on this submersible had to sign all sorts of legal waivers and indemnities before they could do so, including  forgoing rights to make any claims in the event of misfortune.

 

How those disclaimers will stand up in court is now anybody’s guess.

Edited June 23, 2023 by BoD

[polybear]

1 hour ago, BoD said:

I saw that earlier and thought ‘blimey’. Or words to the effect.

 

I’m sure I have read somewhere that those travelling on this submersible had to sign all sorts of legal waivers and indemnities before they could do so, including  forgoing rights to make any claims in the event of misfortune.

 

How those disclaimers will stand up in court is now anybody’s guess.

 

I'm pretty sure I saw a previous passenger being interviewed - and he said that they had to read & sign numerous waivers at various times prior to the trip.

I guess it'll come down to just how good OceanGate's Lawyers were in drawing up such disclaimers - perhaps there may be scope for "unfair contract" or OceanGate not disclosing relevant material facts fully.  Way, way above this Bear's pay grade.

 

I wonder if it'll have knock-on effects on trips such as those into space for paying passengers?

[Dave Hunt]

I know that it isn't in the same league but whenever we took civilians for rides in our aircraft they had to sign disclaimers and while I can't recall exactly what they said, I know that they weren't very lengthy documents, just a couple of paragraphs.

 

Dave

[Northmoor]

7 minutes ago, polybear said:

 

I'm pretty sure I saw a previous passenger being interviewed - and he said that they had to read & sign numerous waivers at various times prior to the trip.

I guess it'll come down to just how good OceanGate's Lawyers were in drawing up such disclaimers - perhaps there may be scope for "unfair contract" or OceanGate not disclosing relevant material facts fully.  Way, way above this Bear's pay grade.

 

I wonder if it'll have knock-on effects on trips such as those into space for paying passengers?

ISTR that in the UK, "Members of the public enter at their own risk" signs do not absolve responsibility for the safety of the public entering a site.  What will be interesting about the legal situation is what law applies.  The vessel was commissioned in and the charter sailed from, the USA, but the accident occurred in International waters.

[BoD]

4 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

I know that it isn't in the same league but whenever we took civilians for rides in our aircraft they had to sign disclaimers and while I can't recall exactly what they said, I know that they weren't very lengthy documents, just a couple of paragraphs.

 

Dave

Probably just waiving the dry cleaner bills for brown trousers.

[polybear]

21 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

I know that it isn't in the same league but whenever we took civilians for rides in our aircraft they had to sign disclaimers and while I can't recall exactly what they said, I know that they weren't very lengthy documents, just a couple of paragraphs.

 

Dave

 

Para. 1

If you puke everywhere, you clean it up.

 

Para. 2

If the Driver says "Eject Eject Eject" don't so "Pardon" cos' you'll be talking to yourself.

 

 

[Dave Hunt]

1 hour ago, BoD said:

Probably just waiving the dry cleaner bills for brown trousers.

 

I wasn't that bad at driving the things!

 

53 minutes ago, polybear said:

Para. 1

If you puke everywhere, you clean it up.

 

Para. 2

If the Driver says "Eject Eject Eject" don't so "Pardon" cos' you'll be talking to yourself.

 

Almost right. The second part was "If you hear 'eject, eject, eject' the second and third ones are echoes."

 

Dave

[Happy Hippo]

I once broke wind whilst sitting in the back seat of a Hawk.

 

The pilot looked distinctly green and was staggering around for some time after we landed.

[J. S. Bach]

Night Owl from the Piedmont.

[Adam88]

See next

 

Edited June 23, 2023 by Adam88

[Adam88]

10 hours ago, Hroth said:

 

I remember when our postman used to wear a proper uniform jacket, long trousers, polished boots and a peaked uniform cap.  THAT was civilisation, we're in the End Days now...

 

 

 Like this?

 

[Adam88]

The recent news event of father and son dying simultaneously reminded me of the sad demise of the first Lord Stamp, chairman of the LMS, and his son who were atomised by a German bomb as they sheltered together.  It was decided a) that his lordship died immediately before his son and that his late son had to pay death duties and b) that after the new second Lord Stamp died his heir (his brother) had to pay death duties again on the now much diminished estate.

[AndyID]

17 hours ago, polybear said:

 

If the USN didn't release the "apparent explosion" information until they had hard evidence then why not treat the "banging" in the same manner, i.e. wait until they had hard evidence that it was coming from the sub before releasing it?

 

The Navy detected an anomaly which could have been an implosion but it could have been a lot of other things too. The navy passed that information on the the Coast Guard who were running the rescue.

 

Banging meant there was still hope that they were still alive. An implosion meant there was no chance that they were alive, but what if they had said there had been an implosion and that turned out to be a false alarm? You hold out hope until you have hard evidence that there is zero chance of survival. I believe the Coast Guard was acting in good faith during a very difficult operation.

 

One small blessing is that those on the sub would have known nothing about it. The event would have been much, much shorter than human reaction times and it would have been all over in a few milliseconds. Not only that but the heat generated as the air in the sub compressed would have made everything combustible in the sub burn in an instant. That would result in an explosion.

[AndyID]

18 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

Commiserations on the back trouble HH from one who knows only too well how excruciating it can be. As one doctor said to me, the trouble with the ‘bad back’ is that it isn't something that can be seen from outside, it has the reputation of being used as an excuse by malingerers for not working, many people think of it as merely a bit of backache, and it is often seen as something amusing by those who have never experienced it. 

 

Dave

 

A neighbor has had various ops on his back  with limited or no success. He has just had some sort of electrodes installed that are supposed to block the pain when he presses a button on a thing like a garage door remote control. Don't know if it's working for him.

[pH]

14 minutes ago, AndyID said:

 

A neighbor has had various ops on his back  with limited or no success. He has just had some sort of electrodes installed that are supposed to block the pain when he presses a button on a thing like a garage door remote control. Don't know if it's working for him.

If his shirt rolls up, you know it’s not working!

[polybear]

5 hours ago, Adam88 said:

The recent news event of father and son dying simultaneously reminded me of the sad demise of the first Lord Stamp, chairman of the LMS, and his son who were atomised by a German bomb as they sheltered together.  It was decided a) that his lordship died immediately before his son and that his late son had to pay death duties and b) that after the new second Lord Stamp died his heir (his brother) had to pay death duties again on the now much diminished estate.

 

Under UK law it is deemed that where two die together and it's not possible to reasonably determine who died first then it's taken that the eldest always died first.

It's very, very common in Wills to include survivorship clauses, such as "my son Bert inherits X on condition that he survives me by 30 days" in order to avoid such situations.

 

[polybear]

From BBC News:

 

"Ross Kemp had planned to film a television show that involved a dive to the Titanic wreck site in the OceanGate submersible - but it was cancelled over safety fears.

The actor, known for playing Grant Mitchell in EastEnders, was going to visit the wreck in the sub last year.

But TV company Atlantic Productions deemed the Titan not "fit for purpose".

[rockershovel]

1 minute ago, polybear said:

From BBC News:

 

"Ross Kemp had planned to film a television show that involved a dive to the Titanic wreck site in the OceanGate submersible - but it was cancelled over safety fears.

The actor, known for playing Grant Mitchell in EastEnders, was going to visit the wreck in the sub last year.

But TV company Atlantic Productions deemed the Titan not "fit for purpose".

I can't imagine that such a craft would pass the scrutiny of a corporate insurance department anywhere. 

 

Under UK law, it is not acceptable to sign away rights such as the Duty Of Care owed by an employer, the operator of a public transport system or similar. You CAN sign a waiver signifying that you are aware of the risks, but that can be subject to the degree and nature of that risk. 

 

 

[rockershovel]

My darling daughter informs me that Hunter boots are going into receivership with debts in excess of £100m. How is it even possible to run up such a deficit, making welly boots? 

 

I assume that loading a company with debt while downgrading the product by cost-driven out-sourcing has an in-built limitation? 

 

I'd be curious to know what wellies are favoured by RMWebbers? I currently have a pair of Rockfall work wellies (these, or Buckboots equivalents are pretty much standard for onshore drilling), a pair of those bright yellow Dutch gas company ones (anti-static for working in gas plants) and some cheapies from Arco for gardening

...

[Happy Hippo]

14 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

My darling daughter informs me that Hunter boots are going into receivership with debts in excess of £100m. How is it even possible to run up such a deficit, making welly boots? 

 

I assume that loading a company with debt while downgrading the product by cost-driven out-sourcing has an in-built limitation? 

 

I'd be curious to know what wellies are favoured by RMWebbers? I currently have a pair of Rockfall work wellies (these, or Buckboots equivalents are pretty much standard for onshore drilling), a pair of those bright yellow Dutch gas company ones (anti-static for working in gas plants) and some cheapies from Arco for gardening

...

Aldi or Lidl's finest neoprene lines fishing boots.

 

Warm, comfortable and I can buy about 5 pairs before I run up the cost of a pair of Hunter's. My current pair of 'el cheapy' are about 4 years old.

 

I have owned a pair of Hunter's but with limited movement in my left ankle, I find it very difficult to put on a smug fitting pull on boot.  A boot pull is definitely required.  I also found the Hunter's quite cold in the winter.

 

I do go for comfort over name brand.

[SM42]

I find wellies of any kind to be very uncomfortable and my feet are I agony after about 10 minutes. 

 

The only pair I've had as an adult are steel toe capped and provided by work. 

 

I've worn them for about 16 hours in total over  the last 30 years. 

 

 That was long enough

 

Andy

[Hroth]

16 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

Aldi or Lidl's finest neoprene lines fishing boots.

 

I'll second that, the neoprene uppers make them flexible around the ankle and calf, easy to get in and out of and comfortable to wear.

 

Inexpensive too!

 

[Happy Hippo]

I have been mulling over the Titan tragedy.

 

The hull was made of carbon fibre, a very strong materiel.  But when it does go, think posh expensive cars and the damage to their carbon fibre bodies when things go wrong, it fragments easily.

 

Carbon fibre is used to make lightweight dive tanks:  We also use them for PCP air rifle re-charging.

 

But.....!

 

A steel dive tank has certificate and then a 5 year life (bit like a loco boiler) after which it cannot, and will not be refilled by a commercial company, until the tank has been inspected and re-certified for a further 5 years.

 

A carbon fibre tank has no such regime.  It has a date of manufacture and it is good for 10 years.

 

There is no extension to that time limit, after which it has to be scrapped.  

 

One presumes that the industry safety standards for these tanks are worked out on an average charge/discharge cycle.  Some tanks will go to scrap closer to the end of their safe life, whilst others will be well under, but still have get axed. 

 

Of course, these rules are only good if the user abides by them.  If you have your own compressor, (capable of pumping in excess of 300 bar) then you can ignore the time limits if you feel brave (or stupid) enough. 

 

Had Titan exceeded what might be deemed a safe number of compressions/decompressions?

 

I appreciate there are other factors, such as the acrylic viewing  plate only being certified to a certain depth, but without any independent certification, it is hard to justify building what is in effect, a passenger carrying deep water submersible.

 

After all if Dave Hunt and I built a full size Gotha bomber out of balsa and string, and started offering flights around Shropshire, I'm sure we could, but only if we first met the rather stringent insurance and aviation regulations.  Failure to do so would get the operation shut down pdq, with crown court proceedings following in due course.

 

 

Edited June 24, 2023 by Happy Hippo