The Night Mail

[Erichill16]

I think a conservatory  has a transparent roof while on orangery has a ‘solid’ roof. 
Robert

 

Edited July 26, 2020 by Erichill16

[Happy Hippo]

I follow a number of closed Facebook groups and the subject of H&S versus the application of Common Sense was raised and why it as not allowed to be applied by individuals in this day and age.

 

For instance, if you are standing at a traffic lights controlled crossing and the pedestrian lights are red, you should wait until the green light is illuminated.

If you don't then you become a Jaywalker.  Now in Germany, if a pedestrian ignores the red light, and are caught crossing, they will be fined.

 

But common sense would say that if the road is clear do you really need to wait?

 

Of course, a car appears and people still chance the crossing.  common sense would say that it would be sensible to wait because you're not quite sure how fast the car is travelling at.

 

But, there will be the chancers who have to run across the road to avoid being hit by the car.  Yes, you will argue that a good driver would have seen the hazard and adjusted speed and position on the road accordingly.  But what if you have a chancer or a poor driver in partial control of the vehicle?

 

If I were to take ten individuals out on a driving assessment, and asked them to drive briskly, overtaking where necessary, but driving in accordance with the law, I'd get ten different drives. 

 

The individuals would all apply what they felt was safe and sensible by using common sense, but they'd all show that their perceptions of this was different.

 

It's why there are speed restrictions on roads, because not all drivers can be trusted to apply common sense and drive at a safe speed for the conditions.

 

I'm sure there are many other examples  from other walks of life available.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Happy Hippo

[jamie92208]

Good moaning.  Gardening this morning but in the meantime I am trying to sort a modelling problem out in my head.  On my 4F I need to fit the slide bar/cylinder block sub assembly to the motion bracket. Helpfully the bracket has one small rectangular  hole in it for the valve rockers. It does not have two nice rectangular spaces for the sludebar/connecting rods to fit through. I'm nit very good with a piercing saw but do have a lot of recent practice in how to make round 6mm holes into square 6mm holes. This was from the winter task of shutter refurbishment. My thoughts are to drill holes then file them out before soldering everything together. 

 

Nowvif someone lived near Keighley and could photograph the motion plate on the 4F there it would be grest, but we don't live in a perfect world. I will however look at some drawings.  All good things to ponder whilst driving the ride on mower round the weed patch.

 

Jamie

[Dave Hunt]

Quite a productive afternoon yesterday modelling-wise and I now have the topography finished ready for grassing etc. on my layout - details over on the Midland Railway Company forum. There's still a good few years work to do but with lots of luck and God's help I may get it done!

 

As HH discussed, the subject of H&S v common sense is a tricky one. Many years ago now I landed a Tornado at a civilian airport and in such cases where there were no tailor-made ladders available for getting in and out we would normally climb out onto the engine intake, shuffle along to the wing, step down onto it then sit on the leading edge, slide down onto the drop tank and then drop the short distance to the ground. In this instance, though, the ground crew shouted up that we were to wait until they had brought some suitable equipment "because of health and safety". None of their available steps were right for the job and we waited while they went into a huddle then one of them spoke on his radio and eventually along came one of the conveyor belt thingies they use for conveying luggage in and out of airliners' holds. They brought it up to the aircraft and elevated it to cockpit level. Now, I don't know whether you've ever tried walking down a sloping, flexible surfaced conveyor belt without handrails but I'm here to tell you that it isn't easy and trying not to fall of concentrates the mind wonderfully. It is, in fact, a lot more dangerous than the usual aircrew method of exiting a Tornado without ladders and is far from any common sense way of doing things but apparently satisfied the airport H & S representative. When it came to departure we politely but firmly told them that we were not going to use their method of entry and would do our own thing via drop tank, wing and intake. The chap in charge was most upset and I thought he was going to try to stop us but even his own men realised that would be futile and eventually common sense prevailed. 

 

When crown immunity was was removed from the armed forces in peacetime the first assessment made by an H&S professional was that the access ladders for several types of RAF aircraft were not acceptable and that the sort of things provided for civilian airline passengers would have to be made. It was also decreed that some of the ground crew jobs during a turn round (the process of refuelling, gassing, re-arming and other replenishment, inspection etc. between flights) would require scaffolding to be set up. Fortunately common sense then prevailed and eventually it was decided that the strict provisions of H&S were not applicable out on the flight line and that standard RAF flight safety rules were sufficient.

 

I offer the above not as a criticism of H&S per se, which overall is undoubtedly a good thing and was necessary in many areas and situations, but merely as examples of how an over-zealous application of its tenets can be counter-productive and reinforce the oft-stated, "Oh, bl**dy 'elf 'n safety again," response that can lead to its wiser and better provisions being brought into disrepute and even ignored as a result.

 

Have a good week everyone.

 

Dave

[Happy Hippo]

2 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Good moaning.  Gardening this morning but in the meantime I am trying to sort a modelling problem out in my head.  On my 4F I need to fit the slide bar/cylinder block sub assembly to the motion bracket. Helpfully the bracket has one small rectangular  hole in it for the valve rockers. It does not have two nice rectangular spaces for the sludebar/connecting rods to fit through. I'm nit very good with a piercing saw but do have a lot of recent practice in how to make round 6mm holes into square 6mm holes. This was from the winter task of shutter refurbishment. My thoughts are to drill holes then file them out before soldering everything together. 

I think that drilling and broaching the holes would be the best bet.

 

If you are accurate with drilling and measuring then I'd also be tempted to drill a hole centralised on the axis of the slide bar(s) and then drill the motion plate with the corresponding holes and use some wire to pin them in place through the motion bracket.  

 

One does have to question why the bracket was not made up with the holes for the rest of the motion, assuming it's a kit.............. Or is the valve gear and motion an after market fit?

Edited July 27, 2020 by Happy Hippo

[Happy Hippo]

48 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

I offer the above not as a criticism of H&S per se, which overall is undoubtedly a good thing and was necessary in many areas and situations, but merely as examples of how an over-zealous application of its tenets can be counter-productive and reinforce the oft-stated, "Oh, bl**dy 'elf 'n safety again," response that can lead to its wiser and better provisions being brought into disrepute and even ignored as a result.

I am lead to believe that H&S as originally conceived was to stop unsafe working practices in heavy industry.  Something it did very well.  However, it then was required to cover offices and other administrative areas within the heavy industry site.  Once these were encapsulated the requirement for offices and admin area outside of the industry were seen to need cover and you can see how the whole 'business' then got out of hand.  It created a whole new industry which is profitable, and as such will continue to grow to feed it's shareholders etc.

 

However, it has also undoubtedly saved many lives since it's inception.

[jamie92208]

54 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

I think that drilling and broaching the holes would be the best bet.

 

If you are accurate with drilling and measuring then I'd also be tempted to drill a hole centralised on the axis of the slide bar(s) and then drill the motion plate with the corresponding holes and use some wire to pin them in place through the motion bracket.  

 

One does have to question why the bracket was not made up with the holes for the rest of the motion, assuming it's a kit.............. Or is the valve gear and motion an after market fit?

The bracket and thevslide bars/motion kit are two separate after market kits from Laurie Griffin. The motion plate is part of an add on kit specific to the 4F to go with the generic Stephenson motion inside valve gear kit. Having been out on the tractor in the morning sun I now plan to do some CAD work to determine con rod clearances.  It does strike me as odd that the necessary holes are not cast into the motion bracket. I may well email Laurie at some stage.

 

Jamie

[jamie92208]

After scribing my moan above and also doing the grass cutting the post arrived and there's a long and well illustrated article about constructing a Connoisseur/ F kit. Onebof the photos shows a motion plate with all the necessary holes.  It gives me a starter for 10.

 

Meant to say earlier that I had a wierd dream last night. For some reason I was in Trump Tower and suddenly  the orange one emerged saying "I've resigned" and walked off alone. However  his route took him along South Accommodation  Road in South Leeds. Last seen heading for the River Ayre.  I hope it's an accurate prophecy.

 

Jamie

Edited July 27, 2020 by jamie92208

[Happy Hippo]

34 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

After scribing my mosn above and also doi g the grass cutting thevpostvarrived and therevis a long and well illustratedcarticlevabout constructing a Connoisseur/ F kit. Onebof the photos shoes a motion plate with all the necessary holes.  It gives meca starter for 10.

 

Meant to say earlier that I had a wierd dream last night. For some reason I was in Trump Tower and suddenly  the orange one emerged saying "I've resigned" and walked off alone. However  his route took him along South Accommodation  Road in South Leeds. Last seen heading for the River Ayre.  I hope it's an accurate prophecy.

 

Jamie

Orange Ayre, how original!

[Happy Hippo]

Well the swing refurbishment has not gone as planned.

Having stripped it down (wooden frame) and carefully inspected the timber beams, I came to the conclusion that neither of the grandchildren should be suspended from it if it were reassembled after a lick of paint.

 

In fact, although some of the beams can be sawn up to make some replacement cross members, the whole lot, apart from the two plastic units that connect the crossbeam to the uprights, is now in the scrap bin.

 

Fortunately, the beams are all stock sizes from Wickes/B&Q etc so it will just be a case of picking up some new timber and drilling out the respective holes.  I already have a fine collection of suitable coach bolts to stick it all back together again.

 

I really should have gone and collected the timber this afternoon, but with the torrential rain and other jobs that could be done from the comfort of the house, I couldn't be bothered.

 

I suspect that by the time I've totted everything up that I've had to spend on this creation plus the amount of time I've spent running around after bits and bobs, it would have been cheaper to have just bought a new one!

 

At least the bits that are now in the bin or on the bench were free, and the rebuild, as opposed to the refurbished, will be good for about another 10 years.

 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Happy Hippo

[Tony_S]

2 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

At least the bits that are now in the bin or on the bench were free, and the rebuild, as opposed to the refurbished, will be good for about another 10 years

We had an Early Learning Centre climbing frame that was still fine after 10 years when we wanted to dispose of it. At that time it seemed impossible to even give used garden toys away but next doors grandchildren liked it so it went over the fence. Later on when they moved to Wales the climbing frame followed as have a number of out grown bicycles. 

[Happy Hippo]

7 minutes ago, Tony_S said:

We had an Early Learning Centre climbing frame that was still fine after 10 years when we wanted to dispose of it. At that time it seemed impossible to even give used garden toys away but next doors grandchildren liked it so it went over the fence. Later on when they moved to Wales the climbing frame followed as have a number of out grown bicycles. 

They had one next door which got cut up on site with the new electric chainsaw they'd just bought. 

 

I ended up with all the lumps of treated timber to make sleepers and battens after they realised it was not a good idea to use the timber in their wood burner.  I'd have preferred the  complete climbing frame rather than the pile of timber, and would have dismantled it if only they'd asked.

 

 

 

[bbishop]

Another day at the coalface.  I was contacted late last night because they couldn't get cover.  So I drove round the South Circular to Dulwich and got a lift with someone with a Congestion Charge pass.  A fairly busy morning then this afternoon I was writing up Robert Urie.  A man with quite a temper.  Whacked so off to bed with the Gazette.  Tomorrow I have the three sons and the death of Drummond - sounds like a Scottish play.  Bill

[jamie92208]

The Gazette also landed here Bill and answered me a question, see above.  Quick delivery.

Bon nuit.

 

Jamie

[Dave Hunt]

Jamie, for what it's worth when scratch building I make the holes in motion plates for inside valve gear as HH suggested by drilling and filing/broaching. I first make a small drilling jig from a piece of steel plate so that the holes in the rear cylinder cover and those in the motion plate match exactly.

 

I once heard about someone who had a wood burner and was offered and bought some lumps of wood for it at a very low price. After an alarming experience they discovered that the wood had come from a factory that was being demolished and had been part of a structure that held vats of waste machine oil and was saturated in the stuff. It seems incredible that they didn't realise before putting some in the burner what it was like - it must have reeked of oil.

 

Night all.

 

Dave    

[Happy Hippo]

I have an early start tomorrow:  A day trip to Llandiddlyho.

 

We have our masks at the ready.

 

Of course it's business not pleasure, although it makes sense to park at my brother in law's place and walk in to the town centre along the prom.  That way there is no difficulty in finding a place to park.

 

Of course this amble requires fine weather, as there is no way I'll be carrying out such an excursion should the wind be lashing the rain almost horizontal.

 

Fortunately the trip does not require us to meet any others, so apart from a wave to BiL we will be able to keep away from others.  I will be making up a packed lunch of  Smoked Salmon and cream cheese sandwiches with a hint of Dill; some coffee and a selection of fruit.

 

Noticeable by it's absence are  large slices of cake.

 

The first thing I read in the Gazette was the letters page which has a lot of untruths about the aims of the reform group.  Where some people have got the idea that Guildex will be reduced to a one day event, and that the Gazette will go on line only is anyone's guess.  And as for the comment about putting up subs to cover any shortfall in funding because of Guildex making a loss, well it just beggar's belief.

 

 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

HH, I apologize in advance.

 

 

Evening all,

 

Today I acquired this 1920s Weeden Mfg. Co. No. 14 steam engine (not the one seen below). This will be eventually hooked up to a Meccano rolling mill, in a similar arrangement to that at Hafod Copperworks in Swansea. The fake governor will need some adjustment, and some repainting is definitely in order. I might start a thread on this, but I'm not sure where to put it, advice would be greatly appreciated.  It was chuckinitdern all afternoon today, giving the grass a good dousing. My bathroom is going to be remodeled in the coming weeks, nothing has been done so far except for measurements being taken. Thankfully we are getting someone else who we have used many times before to remodel bits of our house, as I remember some really rubbish "contractors", or scam artists, you choose. Dinner was just had, it consisted of a very nice sheet pan quesadilla. 

 

 

stay healthy,

 

Douglas

[PatB]

18 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

Quite a productive afternoon yesterday modelling-wise and I now have the topography finished ready for grassing etc. on my layout - details over on the Midland Railway Company forum. There's still a good few years work to do but with lots of luck and God's help I may get it done!

 

As HH discussed, the subject of H&S v common sense is a tricky one. Many years ago now I landed a Tornado at a civilian airport and in such cases where there were no tailor-made ladders available for getting in and out we would normally climb out onto the engine intake, shuffle along to the wing, step down onto it then sit on the leading edge, slide down onto the drop tank and then drop the short distance to the ground. In this instance, though, the ground crew shouted up that we were to wait until they had brought some suitable equipment "because of health and safety". None of their available steps were right for the job and we waited while they went into a huddle then one of them spoke on his radio and eventually along came one of the conveyor belt thingies they use for conveying luggage in and out of airliners' holds. They brought it up to the aircraft and elevated it to cockpit level. Now, I don't know whether you've ever tried walking down a sloping, flexible surfaced conveyor belt without handrails but I'm here to tell you that it isn't easy and trying not to fall of concentrates the mind wonderfully. It is, in fact, a lot more dangerous than the usual aircrew method of exiting a Tornado without ladders and is far from any common sense way of doing things but apparently satisfied the airport H & S representative. When it came to departure we politely but firmly told them that we were not going to use their method of entry and would do our own thing via drop tank, wing and intake. The chap in charge was most upset and I thought he was going to try to stop us but even his own men realised that would be futile and eventually common sense prevailed. 

 

When crown immunity was was removed from the armed forces in peacetime the first assessment made by an H&S professional was that the access ladders for several types of RAF aircraft were not acceptable and that the sort of things provided for civilian airline passengers would have to be made. It was also decreed that some of the ground crew jobs during a turn round (the process of refuelling, gassing, re-arming and other replenishment, inspection etc. between flights) would require scaffolding to be set up. Fortunately common sense then prevailed and eventually it was decided that the strict provisions of H&S were not applicable out on the flight line and that standard RAF flight safety rules were sufficient.

 

I offer the above not as a criticism of H&S per se, which overall is undoubtedly a good thing and was necessary in many areas and situations, but merely as examples of how an over-zealous application of its tenets can be counter-productive and reinforce the oft-stated, "Oh, bl**dy 'elf 'n safety again," response that can lead to its wiser and better provisions being brought into disrepute and even ignored as a result.

 

Have a good week everyone.

 

Dave

Unfortunately, many in authority seek a one size fits all solution where bespoke is more appropriate, and is usually possible, given some thought and effort.

[PatB]

4 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

HH, I apologize in advance.

 

 

Evening all,

 

Today I acquired this 1920s Weeden Mfg. Co. No. 14 steam engine (not the one seen below). This will be eventually hooked up to a Meccano rolling mill, in a similar arrangement to that at Hafod Copperworks in Swansea. The fake governor will need some adjustment, and some repainting is definitely in order. I might start a thread on this, but I'm not sure where to put it, advice would be greatly appreciated.  It was chuckinitdern all afternoon today, giving the grass a good dousing. My bathroom is going to be remodeled in the coming weeks, nothing has been done so far except for measurements being taken. Thankfully we are getting someone else who we have used many times before to remodel bits of our house, as I remember some really rubbish "contractors", or scam artists, you choose. Dinner was just had, it consisted of a very nice sheet pan quesadilla. 

 

 

stay healthy,

 

Douglas

Nice little steam engine. Considerably more refined than the usual oscillators. Just make sure the safety valve isn't stuck before you put a match to it.

[jamie92208]

7 hours ago, PatB said:

Unfortunately, many in authority seek a one size fits all solution where bespoke is more appropriate, and is usually possible, given some thought and effort.

The other big problem was that in many organisations there were few volunteers for the post of H&S manager. Many people who took on the task had little real appreciation  of risk and mitigation and the easy answer was always NO.  There are many excellent and very thorough people who do the job but not all are in that category.  Also Elf andSafety often gets blamed when the real culprits are the insurance companies and the lawyers.

 

Jamie

Edited July 28, 2020 by jamie92208

[petethemole]

As a retired archaeologist I'm all in favour of H&S legislation.  I know of at least one archaeologist killed by a trench collapse  and in 1971 when still a student I had to dig somebody out of a collapsed trench; fortunately she was only partly buried but suffered a broken ankle.  Hi-viz is not magical protection however.  A colleague who was normally very strict about H&S had his arm broken by a digger bucket when he inadvertantly moved into the swing arc, despite wearing full yellows.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Morning all,

 

Here is a little something I made yesterday. I think it’s probably the worlds most ineffective rolling mill, especially since it has a partial belt drive, not good for preventing slippage. 
 

Currently it’s chuckinitdern outside, and is supposed to all day and all week. This might possibly prevent the general landscape from turning into a dry straw color until hopefully September or later. 
 

stay healthy,

 

Douglas

 

[The Johnster]

I find your rolling mill to be a thing of wonder and strange beauty, Douglas, and would respectfully suggest that anyone who does not is displaying evidence of a sick mind; they are probably in marketing or something...

[Northroader]

The question arises what are you going to roll in it? I do hope it’s not, er, smoking requisites.

Returning from the North Wales Coast it was always considered a necessary part of the procedure to stop off at Long Lane, and partake of a refreshing beverage, was it called the Bush then? Now I see it’s the Ugly Duckling.

[Happy Hippo]

8 hours ago, petethemole said:

As a retired archaeologist I'm all in favour of H&S legislation.  I know of at least one archaeologist killed by a trench collapse  and in 1971 when still a student I had to dig somebody out of a collapsed trench; fortunately she was only partly buried but suffered a broken ankle.  Hi-viz is not magical protection however.  A colleague who was normally very strict about H&S had his arm broken by a digger bucket when he inadvertantly moved into the swing arc, despite wearing full yellows.

Once you start getting into the reals of digging deep trenches, you are back into the reals of heavy industry/mining, which is what the H&SE was originally set up to deal with.

 

One of our neighbours was telling me of a trench collapse which killed a fellow worker.  It was deep and partially boarded to provide a safe working area.  The unboarded area was marked off with tape.

 

At tea break, rather than walk to the far end of the trench, the poor unfortunate decided to take a short cut under the tape  and walk out of the trench. It was something the work force had been particularly briefed about when they shad started the project. Unfortunately as he about half way along the unprotected section a bulldozer went past, and the vibration triggered a collapse of the un-boarded trench walls.

 

Since the trench was about 10 feet deep it took quite a time to dig him out, by which time he'd suffocated.