LMC Bakelite Coach Restoration a cautionary tale

[Bassettblowke]

I purchased this coach some time ago, it was in pieces basically a pair of bogies a roof and the body. The coach body had been brush painted in maroon and whilst the colour looked good the finish was something lower than abysmal. Fortunately for me this seemed to put the majority of punters off and it fell into my hands at a reasonable price. This was my first experience of LMC Bakelite coaching stock so some research was in order.

i managed to find an LMC catalogue circa 1953 which showed the coach as it had originally been purchased, from the looks of things the original purchaser never progressed beyond painting the coach and I can only presume this was down to dissatisfaction with the finish, which was pretty grim. I tried flatting the finish but still couldn’t obtain a satisfactory finish so for a few months it was set aside whilst I pondered the next step. Eventually I decided to strip the finish and having had good results in the past I decided to use caustic soda. This being the first time stripping Bakelite I used a piece of broken Bakelite wagon as a test, this worked fine so I took the plunge.

Initially  all went swimmingly with the paint dissolving freely and as I rotated the body in the bucket all appeared fine, the reaction was very quick no more than a minute or two and it was only when it was lifted clear and immersed in water that I realised the caustic had worked in a radically different way on the end of the coach that was at the bottom of the bucket, essentially the Bakelite instead of looking like smooth plastic now resembled rough sawn wood.
it was evident that something was awry so the coach was quickly immersed in a solution of white vinegar and water in an attempt to stop any further degrading of the surface. The enclosed pictures will show the effect on the end and also the unaffected sides. The puzzle for me is why we have two radically different results on the same lump of Bakelite.

more to follow including the hopefully restorative process.

Edited July 7, 2020 by Bassettblowke

[cctransuk]

3 minutes ago, Bassettblowke said:

.... I realised the caustic had worked in a radically different way on the end of the coach that was at the bottom of the bucket ....

 

Could the solution have been more concentrated at the bottom of the bucket?

 

Was there some undissolved soda at the bottom of the bucket?

 

Could gases produced by the chemical reaction have become trapped against the lower surface?

 

Just ponderings!

 

John Isherwood.

[Bassettblowke]

All strong possibilities should I ever repeat the process a more thorough mixing process will be on the cards.

[Bassettblowke]

As an aside to dealing with the problems caused by the Caustic the possible problem of asbestos being present in the Bakelite mix has to be considered. At some stage the roof will need to be attached to the body and this will probably require holes drilling and also for the roof ventilators to be fixed in place. The drilling operation will have to be in a contained environment and suitable PPE used. It does say in the 1953 instructions that needle files can be used to remove excess flashing, obviously knowing what we know now about the possible consequences of exposure to asbestos due care has to be taken, not only for oneself but also for  those who share the same environment.
 

Thinking about John’s suggestions for possible causes of the caustic problem I tend to lean towards the first in that the solution may have been stronger at the bottom.  During the process the coach was attached to a piece of wire coat hanger and was kept moving, essentially the coach being used to agitate the mix and dislodge the paint. For this reason I would tend to disregard the gas pocket suggestion. On emptying the bucket there was no undissolved soda at the bottom of the bucket, although that doesn’t necessarily mean there wasn’t some there at some stage during the process. Still an element of mystery about it all especially as the sides that butt up to the ends are completely unaffected. My other thought was that possibly the ends were made separately and subsequently attached to the sides raising the possibility of a different mix of Bakelite being used. All a bit of puzzle.

 

moving onto the paint process I decided to use an etch primer on the damaged end, this tends to be high build and hopefully will go some way to evening out the surface, first coat is grey, followed by a flash coat of red oxide and then a coat of Matt black all being Halfords spray cans. The next step is to flat down the end using the different colours as a guide so I don’t start flatting Bakelite just the paint. Prior to flatting it has the appearance of Leatherette used for vinyl roofs that were de rigueur on  cars in the 1970’s

looking to the future I am hopeful that the damage being on the end of the coach won’t be glaringly obvious time will tell.

 

 

[Nearholmer]

It’s a very nice moulding, and you were obviously careful to look for one with the window vent frames intact - the ones I see always have half of them broken.

[Bassettblowke]

A quick update showing the affected end after priming, flatting, and repainting. The high build primer has worked quite well on the mottled surface with just a few remaining areas needing further work. The down side to the high build etch primer is the blurring of the finer detail. However with me operating in a world far removed from fine detail that’s not such a problem. Acceptable is what I am aiming for, which is a good standard to aim for as you can shift the goal posts to meet the situation.

[Nearholmer]

On this page http://www.leedsstedmantrust.org/history.html is a link to a Pathe News film of one of these coaches being made in the factory pre-WW2, which makes clear that the ends were moulded with the sides, in one piece.

[Bassettblowke]

Thanks for posting that link very illuminating if not downright fascinating just a shame it was like most Pathe news films to short. Interesting as well was the you tube link to Victor Martin and his Wife and his railway on the isle of Sheppey, I’ve watched this before but I never tire of it, a great British eccentric or just a really committed rail enthusiast either way great stuff and inspirational  for us lesser mortals.

Edited July 10, 2020 by Bassettblowke

[Bassettblowke]

In between spraying and rubbing down the paint job I’ve been reflecting on how to use this coach, as with most of my purchases I didn’t set out to buy  this specific coach it was just an impulse buy. I have to accept that finding another two at an affordable price is pretty unlikely so how to employ said beast. Looking at it along side Ace, B/Lowke, Darstaed and LMC overlayed  wooden stock it looks a tad out of place.
Eventually the lightbulb moment came and I am now toying with the idea of painting it olive drab and using it as a departmental coach. This appeals for several reasons firstly it can be paired with a tank Loco and an assortment of vans and open wagons and used as a works train. Secondly it can be parked up in a siding somewhere (good reason to add a siding)  and thirdly and best of all no worries about the livery, lining, transfers etc.

Time to contemplate the navel and make a decision.

[Nearholmer]

Seems a tad unkind to such a nice coach.

 

As a corridor brake coach, couldn’t it just be the “through coach from London”, detached from the express at the junction in order to travel down the branch?

 

PS: weren’t departmental vehicles black in the BR steam age, olive coming-in in the 1960s?

[Bassettblowke]

36 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

 

PS: weren’t departmental vehicles black in the BR steam age, olive coming-in in the 1960s?

Drat that’s put paid to that bright idea

[Il Grifone]

What's wrong with black?  

 

I recall Pathé News as being a boring interlude at the cinema. Never anything as interesting as this (but it was the fifties...). Some book I read once dismissed it as, "What the Queen did last week!" About right from what I recall.

[BernardTPM]

Besides which departmental coaches tended to be 20 to 30 years, or even more, older than normal 'working' stock, so for 1930s you'd be looking at early Edwardian or Victorian panelled stock.

[Bassettblowke]

Push comes to shove I have a green class 20, I suppose It could be paired with a green departmental coach.

[Nearholmer]

If it has to be departmental, what about replacing the slightly damaged end and making it into an inspection saloon? That way, it becomes the perfect one-coach train, and can be painted in a nice shiny livery as befits its general air. TBH, I don't think it looks exactly like any particular real inspection saloon, but it could be made to pass for the general type.

 

I really do think it deserves to look smart.

 

I've got a Bassett Lowke "blood and custard" stripped for resto, which I've been wondering exactly what to do with, so I might even steal my own idea here!

[Bassettblowke]

Quote

38 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

 

I really do think it deserves to look smart.

 

Just bouncing the ball around no decision made either way yet, looking at it in red oxide primer though you could be right.

[Bassettblowke]

The priming is finished Just a 24 hr wait before a quick rub down and the top coats being applied, I’ve backed away from the departmental idea and settled on Halfords Rover Damask red For the sides and Matt black for the roof and ends. There is a slight hump in the roof and this will Have to be dealt with when a method is devised to secure the roof to the body which Also enables access to the interior. The glazing will need cutting to size and fitting and a decision made as to whether any interior is fitted. Also I will need to draw up a list of parts to purchase from the Leeds Steadman trust.
Comparing the pictures of either end will highlight the loss of detail due to several coats of the etch primer and subsequent flatting with wet and dry this principally involves the detail on the buffer beam.

, 

Edited July 12, 2020 by Bassettblowke

[Silverfox17]

On mine the roofs had some webs moulded in and one or two had a hole so I bent some 1/8" brass bar to fit, then, threaded the other end that would go through the floor and when a nut was put on it pulled the roof down. 

 

Garry 

[Bassettblowke]

I was thinking along the same lines, initially I was tempted to clamp it together and glue it but that presents the obvious problem that should you ever wish to access the interior it would involve breaking it open.

i wonder what the suggested method was back in the day.I can see four large socket type mouldings on the underside of the roof maybe these were meant to be fixing points. Were these coach parts ever sold with instructions or were you left to make it up as you went along. Time for some research.

[Bassettblowke]

More progress with the paint shop, whilst waiting a day or so before doing further work on the paint I’ve been test fitting windows and trial fitting the bogies, buffers and couplings,

 

 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Bassettblowke

[Bassettblowke]

Here’s a picture of the underside of the roof which shows the sockets circled in yellow which I presume has something to do with securing the roof to the coach body however there are no corresponding holes in the coach floor. The locations marked by the yellow cross are I think the locations of the roof vents.

[Bassettblowke]

Prowling around Lidl today I came across some rattle cans that might be of interest to restorers or modellers, the dark red/brown oxide primer in particular appealed to me both for use on stock and brickwork on buildings. Two for £4 which is a steal compared to Halfords, other cans  that may appeal were black and  clear lacquer.

[Silverfox17]

47 minutes ago, Bassettblowke said:

Here’s a picture of the underside of the roof which shows the sockets circled in yellow which I presume has something to do with securing the roof to the coach body however there are no corresponding holes in the coach floor. The locations marked by the yellow cross are I think the locations of the roof vents.

I cannot see how they would need that many securing points for the roof, especially near the ends. I would guess at possible interior light fixings?  I could be wrong but the splits in the boss does seem to mean they were for fixing something. 

 

Garry 

[Nearholmer]

The roofs of the goods vans simply slip in, a very mild interference fit, and given how very rigid and brittle Bakelite is, I doubt anything ‘clicked’ into place.

 

Those channels and bosses shout ‘lighting’ to me, although whether they actually developed the product to include lights I don’t know - Mr Peacock will, I’m sure.

[Bassettblowke]

I think you are both on the right track, looking back at the 53 Leeds catalogue  lighting is indeed quoted as being available. So another of my suppositions crashes and burns.

like Garry before me I am  stuck with a mildly Banana shaped roof so if interference fit was the intended methodology it ain’t gonna work with this one.