dates Pullmans 3rd class insignia when removed

[Romsey Les]

Apologies if this  has been answered  elsewhere.  When would the words "3rd class" have been removed from pullman cars ?  Would the pullmans running on the eastern region in the early 1950s still have the words 3rd class on them ? 

[Pacific231G]

3rd June 1956 was the date that third class was abolished and the  3rd markings painted over or overlaid with 2nd almost immediaely pending the next repaint.  This may have been done with rather more care on Pullman cars than (corrected) BR's passenger fleet but the change had been known about for some time so it may have been more a matterof removing temporary third class signage.

 

In Britain, the change made almost no real difference because there had only been two classes since much earlier in the century and when railways abolished second class they had generally brought their third class accomodation  up to what had been second class standard.

 

It was  a different story in other countries that made the change at the same time; (on the same day for SNCF) as they generally did have three classes. The  change to two classes was agreed by the UIC as the numbers using 1st class had dropped to a very low level hence the change. in France and I suspect elsewhere there was rather more levellig down of second class to what had been third class accomodation. Much second class stock was redesignated as 1st while some remained 2nd class so, even into the seventies, it was worthwhile, when travelling second class, to seek out coaches that that been  second rather than third as they often had one fewer compartments and better legroom.  I remember this being particulalry true for couchettes in day mode (1st 2nd & 3rd class couchettes had been available on many overnight services)

 

I think it was partly the need for consistency in international ticketing etc. that was one of the real reasons why Britain's two classes remained 1st and 3rd for so long though laws dating back to the "Parliamentary" trains may also have placed a requirement for 3rd class accomodation to be available and it would perhaps have required legislation to change that .

 

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by Pacific231G
corrrection to reflect that though nationalised in 1953 the Pullman Car Company remained a separate entity till 1962

[Steamport Southport]

The designation as in "CAR No XYZ THIRD CLASS" was abolished in the late 1940s when they resumed after the war. This was completed by 1951. They just carried the "CAR No XYZ".

 

The Firsts obviously kept their names.

 

Bit of a red herring quoting the BR designation as they weren't BR until 1963.

 

 

Loads of information on Pullmans here.

 

https://sremg.org.uk/coach/pull_1.html

 

 

 

Jason

[Pacific231G]

18 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

The designation as in "CAR No XYZ THIRD CLASS" was abolished in the late 1940s when they resumed after the war. This was completed by 1951. They just carried the "CAR No XYZ".

 

The Firsts obviously kept their names.

 

Bit of a red herring quoting the BR designation as they weren't BR until 1963.

 

 

Loads of information on Pullmans here.

 

https://sremg.org.uk/coach/pull_1.html

 

 

 

Jason

Thanks Jason

Interesting. I'd alway assumed that Pullman's nationalisation in 1953 meant that it had simply been absorbed by BR at that time. I didn't get to sample their delights until about 1965/1966 when the school railway society travelled on the Bournemouth Belle to experience it while still steam hauled.

 

There was an interesting anomaly, that I exploited more than once, that the Pullman supplement for second class was a lot less than the difference between the 1st and 2nd class fares so it was a lot cheaper to travel in the relative opulence of a Pullman car with an attendant to satisfy your every whim than in an ordinary 1st class compartment from where you'd still have to make your own way to the buffet or wait for the trolley.

The Brighton Belle's rather dubious ride qualities in its later years took some of the gloss off it.

There is an interesting 165/66 passenger survey (no "customers" then!) in this article

https://colourrail.co.uk/article/4

Edited August 21, 2020 by Pacific231G

[Romsey Les]

On 21/08/2020 at 01:28, Steamport Southport said:

The designation as in "CAR No XYZ THIRD CLASS" was abolished in the late 1940s when they resumed after the war. This was completed by 1951. They just carried the "CAR No XYZ".

 

 

 

 

Loads of information on Pullmans here.

 

https://sremg.org.uk/coach/pull_1.html

 

 

 

Jason

I can see the logic of this although I have seen one reference that suggests that some had the words "third class" put in front of the car number after the war.  Is there a reference to this in any of the coupe news links on the sremg website ? There doesn`t seem to be a search facility on there ?   Any photos ?