Narrow Gauge Brake Coaches

[PatB]

I'm currently drawing up some freelance narrow gauge coach designs as Cad practice, and to play with my new laser cutter. The regular coaches are proving OK, but the brake end is giving me trouble. Devising guards duckets that will work, be easy to assemble, and will look good is proving to be sufficiently awkward that I'm very tempted to throw my hands up in defeat and try something else. 

 

So my question is, did any UK prototype narrow gauge brake coaches have a birdcage lookout instead, or even no lookouts at all? 

[Nearholmer]

Having had a go at duckets  on NG coaches/vans in 7mm/ft and 15mm/ft, I can advise that the real challenge is getting the outer skin of the ducket to follow tight curves.

 

The answer is not to try to do it with a sheet of material, because it will refuse steadfastly to follow the curves, but to use Individual very narrow horizontal planks, or a block of material carved roughly to shape, let everything go hard, then sand, fill, sand and fill, sand, then add any beading with very fine strip.
 

Didn’t the Ravenglass 3ft gauge passenger brake have a birdcage?

 

It did. Just visible at the far end of the train hauled by ‘Devon’ in this collection.

 https://transportsofdelight.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/BRITISH-NARROW-GAUGE-AND-MINIATURE-RAILWAYS/MINIATURE-RAILWAYS/RAVENGLASS-ESKDALE-RAILWAY/

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2020 by Nearholmer

[eastglosmog]

Neither the Campbeltown and Machrihanish nor Welshpool  and Llanfair had duckets (or birdcages, either).

[Nearholmer]

I have a feeling that the only other birdcages on NG stock in the British isles might have been on an Irish 4W van design, and that they were removed after a few years. Maybe C&VBT or CVR, I can’t remember TBH.

[sir douglas]

the 3ft ratty brake had birdcage

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Didn’t the Ravenglass 3ft gauge passenger brake have a birdcage?

 

It did. Just visible at the far end of the train hauled by ‘Devon’ in this collection.

 https://transportsofdelight.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/BRITISH-NARROW-GAUGE-AND-MINIATURE-RAILWAYS/MINIATURE-RAILWAYS/RAVENGLASS-ESKDALE-RAILWAY/

 

 

23 minutes ago, sir douglas said:

the 3ft ratty brake had birdcage

 

The distinction is perhaps moot given the 3 ft gauge Ratty's predilection for mixed trains but that vehicle has more of the aspect of a goods brake, with a large sliding door. Certainly no passenger accommodation.

[Nearholmer]

It was the only brake van they had, I think, and by no means abnormal for a NG line to have a brake van with a ‘utility’ section that was used alike on mixed, passenger, and goods.

 

Maybe it’s just ‘the brake van’.

 

These are my favourite NG vehicles, which is why I somehow built three different ones for my garden railway that only needed one!

Edited August 22, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

30 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

It was the only brake van they had, I think, and by no means abnormal for a NG line to have a brake van with a ‘utility’ section that was used alike on mixed, passenger, and goods.

 

Maybe it’s just ‘the brake van’.

 

These are my favourite NG vehicles, which is why I somehow built three different ones for my garden railway that only needed one!

 

For instance, the Talyllyn's No. 5 and ex-Corris No. 6.

[eastglosmog]

52 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

The distinction is perhaps moot given the 3 ft gauge Ratty's predilection for mixed trains but that vehicle has more of the aspect of a goods brake, with a large sliding door. Certainly no passenger accommodation.

In theory, but on those rare occasions when the old Ratty was crowded, they put passengers in open trucks, and one of the photos of such an event in W Davies Ravenglass and Eskdale railway seems to show passengers in the guards van!

[PatB]

8 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Having had a go at duckets  on NG coaches/vans in 7mm/ft and 15mm/ft, I can advise that the real challenge is getting the outer skin of the ducket to follow tight curves.

 

The answer is not to try to do it with a sheet of material, because it will refuse steadfastly to follow the curves, but to use Individual very narrow horizontal planks, or a block of material carved roughly to shape, let everything go hard, then sand, fill, sand and fill, sand, then add any beading with very fine strip.
 

Didn’t the Ravenglass 3ft gauge passenger brake have a birdcage?

 

It did. Just visible at the far end of the train hauled by ‘Devon’ in this collection.

 https://transportsofdelight.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/BRITISH-NARROW-GAUGE-AND-MINIATURE-RAILWAYS/MINIATURE-RAILWAYS/RAVENGLASS-ESKDALE-RAILWAY/

 

 

 

Thanks. I've contemplated the possibility of doing that with the duckets, but, flushed with my success at designing a non-brake coach that can be assembled from its laser cut components in less than an hour, I've been hoping to achieve something similar with the brake. I may have to abandon that, for the time being, as being beyond my CAD and Cut beginner status. 

 

In light of everyone's helpful advice, it may be that my 1:35 guard will need to lean out of the van droplights to observe his train. A most inviting prospect on a typical day in the Northumberland coastal setting I'm leaning towards for a fictional line . 

[Wickham Green too]

9 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Having had a go at duckets  on NG coaches/vans ... I can advise that the real challenge is getting the outer skin of the ducket to follow tight curves.

 

The answer is not to try to do it with a sheet of material, because it will refuse steadfastly to follow the curves, ...........

Can you not design a ducket that has angled facets rather than sexy curves ?

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

sexy curves ?

 

But that's the whole point of a ducket. Was it the Great Western called them guard's ogees?

[Nearholmer]

28 minutes ago, PatB said:

I may have to abandon that, for the time being, as being beyond my CAD and Cut beginner status. 

 

Could be the excuse you've been looking for to buy a 3D printer, to create outrageously curvaceous ones that could simply be glued on.

[johnofwessex]

AFAIK the function of Doclets was so that the guard could observe signals, a feature noticeable for their absence on most UK NG lines

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, johnofwessex said:

AFAIK the function of Doclets was so that the guard could observe signals, a feature noticeable for their absence on most UK NG lines

 

That was not the guard's responsibility, as far as I am aware.

[Nearholmer]

When you read old accident reports, they often contain testimony from guards about signal aspects, so whether it was formally part of their duty to look out for signals or not, they certainly seem to have done so (and in one or two cases snapped the couplings of trains by applying their brakes when a driver had run past a stop aspect). I think they probably were required to watch the signals, as well as looking out for things going awry with their train.

 

As to NG: the Festiniog had plenty of signals, and the curly roofed vans had duckets. I think the first iteration of the VoR van had duckets too, and the L&B goods brakes. Some of the NI 3ft gauge too, IIRC (without checking).

 

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

As to NG: the Festiniog had plenty of signals, and the curly roofed vans had duckets. I think the first iteration of the VoR van had duckets too, and the L&B goods brakes. Some of the NI 3ft gauge too, IIRC (without checking).

 

On the L&B, a fully-signalled line, the passenger and goods brakes had (have) duckets.

[Chris116]

I can confirm that it is part of the Guards duties to observe signals as I am a Guard on the Mid Hants Railway and I also have an old BR rule book that says that the Guard should observe the signals. 

[jim.snowdon]

15 hours ago, Chris116 said:

I can confirm that it is part of the Guards duties to observe signals as I am a Guard on the Mid Hants Railway and I also have an old BR rule book that says that the Guard should observe the signals. 

Notwithstanding that, there were certainly brake carriages on the Great Western that were not fitted with dockets, and they never featured on any of the Metropolitan Railway's carriages.

 

Jim

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

Notwithstanding that, there were certainly brake carriages on the Great Western that were not fitted with dockets, and they never featured on any of the Metropolitan Railway's carriages.

 

Up to 1896, the Midland didn't use duckets on guard's compartments in passenger-carrying vehicles, only passenger brake vans. The guard's compartments of the first clerestory carriages were equipped with large duckets in the full ogee manner, that turned out to foul the loading gauge - I think for trains passing at certain locations. These duckets were quickly removed and from 1902 the low-profile projections familiar from LMS-era carriages were introduced, as on this preserved 6-wheel brake.

[Nearholmer]

Periscopes?

 

A Southern thing I think, and presumably there for observing signals. I can’t think they served much other purpose.

[Wickham Green too]

Yes, a Southern Innovation ..... first seem to have appeared on late 1930's electric units then Bulleid loco-hauled & electric stock then on BR Mk1s ..................... retro-fitted to a handful of other things.

[DLT]

On 22/08/2020 at 13:34, PatB said:

I'm currently drawing up some freelance narrow gauge coach designs as Cad practice, and to play with my new laser cutter. The regular coaches are proving OK, but the brake end is giving me trouble. Devising guards duckets that will work, be easy to assemble, and will look good is proving to be sufficiently awkward that I'm very tempted to throw my hands up in defeat and try something else. 

So my question is, did any UK prototype narrow gauge brake coaches have a birdcage lookout instead, or even no lookouts at all? 

I presume we are talking about traditional timber panelled compartment coaches; four-wheeled or bogie?

 

On 22/08/2020 at 13:45, Nearholmer said:

Having had a go at duckets  on NG coaches/vans in 7mm/ft and 15mm/ft, I can advise that the real challenge is getting the outer skin of the ducket to follow tight curves.

The answer is not to try to do it with a sheet of material, because it will refuse steadfastly to follow the curves, but to use Individual very narrow horizontal planks, or a block of material carved roughly to shape, let everything go hard, then sand, fill, sand and fill, sand, then add any beading with very fine strip.
 

 

I like Nearholmer's idea of horizontal planks, this is how the original Manx Northern Railway brake vans were done.  (This is NOT my photo, and I can't remember where I got it from.  I put it hear to illustrate the construction method.  My apologies of this is an infringement of copyright)

 

 

The curve shouldn't really be a problem.  Another way would be to laser-cut multiple profiles of the curved section, they could all be stuck together to form a solid lump.  Then the outer surface could be sanded smooth, or covered by a sheet of plasticard.  The curves don't need to be tight, usually they are fairly gentle.  (I've had no problems making the curved section out of plasticard or brass) The Lynton & Barnstaple guard's duckets had curved tops which might be awkward, but others didn't.  Some had a top that was a continuation of the roof.  On the Isle of Man the duckets had a flat roof with a lamp housing on top.

L&B Brake End   Isle of Man Brake End

 

On 22/08/2020 at 15:17, eastglosmog said:

Neither the Campbeltown and Machrihanish nor Welshpool  and Llanfair had duckets (or birdcages, either).

 

Both those lines had tramway-style coaches, with end balconies, so duckets would have been unnecessary.

 

On 22/08/2020 at 15:50, Nearholmer said:

I have a feeling that the only other birdcages on NG stock in the British isles might have been on an Irish 4W van design, and that they were removed after a few years. Maybe C&VBT or CVR, I can’t remember TBH.

 

The Clogher Valley and the Cavan & Leitrim had similar stock from the same manufacturer.  The works drawings of their brake vans show birdcages, but I've never actually seen a photograph of them in that state.

 

Hope this helps, All the best,

Dave.

 

[PatB]

4 hours ago, DLT said:

I presume we are talking about traditional timber panelled compartment coaches; four-wheeled or bogie?

 

A very rough prototype mock up can be seen here. 

[Nearholmer]

What an incredibly cute little carriage!

 

TBH, to be realistic, if that rather than caricature is the intent, it probably needs to be longer, with more compartments, but I do like it.

 

To me, it speaks of duckets, rather than a birdcage, and given that you are cutting with a laser, so can afford to do really fancy stuff, can I recommend a full "Stroudley style" end, with picture windows, for the brake van? That would make the interior visible, and at 1:35 you could fit it out.

 

Having a tumblehome is quite deluxe for a 2ft gauge vehicle. Brandbright have designed some very believable faux-Victorian laser cut coaches in 1:19, and theirs are straight-sided. http://www.brandbright.co.uk/index.php?cPath=12_14

Edited August 25, 2020 by Nearholmer