4574's final livery....?

[Halvarras]

A long time ago I'm fairly certain that I saw a photo of the last-built 45xx 'Small Prairie' no. 4574 in plain unlined green livery with small later BR emblems. I think it was while thumbing through a book on Western Region steam sheds at an exhibition (as one does......er, did and will again one day, hopefully soon) and the photo taken at Truro c1960/61.

4574 appears in a couple of books I have (it seems to have been a regular on the Looe branch around that time) but as is so often the case the lining, or lack of, is indistinct.

Reason for asking is, I have a spare black 45xx and fancy such a (reasonably easily repainted!) variation to go with my lined green pair (4566 & 5553). 

A pity it isn't a '4575' as I'd have a choice between 5557 & 5569, and I think 5518 which had early BR crests, and wouldn't need to ask the question! But I prefer the 45xx anyway.

Thanks in advance for any help.

[Steamport Southport]

Ian Rathbone did one in that livery.

 

Look at the thumbnails here. Second row down. I assume it's correct.

 

http://www.ianrathbonemodelpainting.co.uk/gallery-1---7mm-scale.php

[Steamport Southport]

No idea of it's final livery though. Here it is at Cashmore's.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/celticexile/14494754963

 

 

 

Jason

[Halvarras]

Wow, many thanks for such a quick response Jason. I would also assume it's correct if Ian Rathbone has turned out that very locomotive in that livery, otherwise it would be quite a coincidence. I can take that as confirmation (also that I wasn't imagining it) and the model won't be sold on after all!

 

The b&w photo is not clear on the livery, although whatever it is it was certainly final! I was also interested in the loco behind, 5537, as this was a Truro engine and was photographed working the Newham branch which I could see from both schools I attended in the Truro area. Its smokebox number plate has survived - I was surprised to find it hanging on a wall of Swindon's STEAM Museum. I do recall seeing steam working the line from a distance, so maybe I've seen this one, but I didn't get interested in railways until 1966, by which time steam had disappeared from Cornwall. Well, except at Falmouth and Par docks!

[Miss Prism]

I have seen a pic of 4574 lined, but not sure when it received lining.

 

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

No idea of it's final livery though. Here it is at Cashmore's.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/celticexile/14494754963

 

 

 

Jason

Some memories there, especially of Cashmore's and the Octopus Bridge!  It really was as grim and bleak as that, even on a sunny day!  

[Halvarras]

19 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

I have seen a pic of 4574 lined, but not sure when it received lining.

 

 

The question is most likely to be when it lost its lining. After a bit of searching through my 'library' I can advise the following regarding 5557:

 

'The Branch Lines of Cornwall' (Lewis Reade, slim softback published by Atlantic 1984) - Derek Cross b&w shot showing 5557 lined green at Wadebridge in September 1959.

 

'Steam in Cornwall' and 'Steam Around Devon and Cornwall' (both Peter Gray colour albums, Ian Allan) show 5557 at Moorswater 15/3/60 and on the Looe branch 18/4/60 in unlined green, pages 13 & 75 respectively.

 

5557 looked tired at Wadebridge but in pretty good condition 6-7 months later, suggesting that somebody had taken a paintbrush to it during that time. Not likely to have been a depot, surely, so perhaps a quick make-over at Swindon during a visit for attention to other matters. My recollection of that photo of 4574 at Truro was that it too looked in good shape, so perhaps it had 'trodden the same path' as 5557 and also lost its lining in the process.

[Hal Nail]

I think 5518 mentioned above was black. I hope so as mine is!

 

St Blazey seems to have had a fair number of the rarer liveries eg BRITISH RAILWAYS wording, several in lined green but early crest, unlined green etc.

Edited October 24, 2020 by Hal Nail

[Halvarras]

I think you are probably right Hal, most likely an incorrect assumption on my part regarding the photo I saw somewhere - I don't think it's in any of my books so I can't check.

 

Actually this 'unlined green with early crest' combination reminds me, Hornby produced Fowey branch regular 1419 (R2381) in unlined green with early crest. Was it really? It's the subject of the first image in Bernard Mills' brilliant book "From Lostwithiel to the China Clay Rails" and even though it's a static colour front 3/4 photo taken in sunlight at Lostwithiel in 1961 I can't decide if it's green heavily ingrained with dirt or plain ol' black........but it doesn't have a top feed, unlike the Hornby model!

[The Johnster]

Top feeds are a thorny issue, as it is difficult without dated photographic evidence to be certain that a loco overhauled after they were introduced had them or not. 14xx boilers were used by a number of other classes and were removed when the loco went in for overhaul.  As it takes longer to overhaul the boiler than it does the rest of the loco, and in order to prevent the loco becoming a bay blocker and return it to revenue earning traffic, a different boiler is fitted, which will be the most recent of the correct type to come out of the boiler shop, and it’s carrying or otherwise of a top feed is completely random.  
 

Over time, as new boilers for new locos were built and eventually found their way into the boiler shop pool, the proportion of top feed boilers increased, bit locos could still be seen right up to the end of steam with boilers without top feeds, including those built with or fitted earlier with top feed boilers.  What is needed for our purposes is a list of  which boilers were fitted to which locomotives at which dates; I’m not volunteering to compile it, wouldn’t know how to!

 

This issue affects the following classes:-

 

14xx/58xx

54/64/74xx (some 64xx and all 74xx were built with top feed). 
57xx/67xx/8750/6750 (all built with tf)/97xx.  The later 96xx series, built with tf, are unlikely to have had a boiler without tf fitted due to their short working lives
 

My opinion is that it would be preferable for RTR to supply locos without tf as it is easier to retrofit the feed and associated plumbing than to remove it and make good the damage. 

 

[Hal Nail]

On 25/10/2020 at 01:45, Neil Phillips said:

Hornby produced Fowey branch regular 1419 (R2381) in unlined green with early crest. Was it really?

'Maud' was always black (in BR days) and never had a top feed. In fact it probably didnt even leave Cornwall all that often although 1408 did get itself snapped at Lostwithiel when covering once.

 

I've never seen a loco in green, no lining, early crest. Did this combination actually exist?

 

In terms of records mentioned above, they are about, as Richard the Lionheart man quoted some mileage and boiler swap dates on the Dapol 14xx thread.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Hal Nail

[Steamport Southport]

I'm pretty sure the details for the 14XXs are in the Peto book. Mine's put away so can't get at it. But they are like the Yeadon's Register LNER books if you haven't seen them.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Petos-Register-Great-Western-Locomotives/dp/1871608880

 

Don't pay over the odds, I got my copy for about £15.

 

He also did Manors and Kings. Unfortunately no others appeared.

 

 

Jason

[Halvarras]

17 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

'Maud' was always black (in BR days) and never had a top feed. In fact it probably didnt even leave Cornwall all that often although 1408 did get itself snapped at Lostwithiel when covering once.

 

 

Thanks Hal, that confirms what I've always suspected. It's strange how the black background to the numberplate often appear to be darker than the surrounding black cab side panel - this affects the afore-mentioned colour photo of 1419, and even b&w photos of ex-works locos at Swindon Works. The specific example I'd quote here is 9635 which entered Swindon Works in 1962/3 for final attention and a repaint from GWR green (!!) into black with late crest - in the side-on photo I found online looking at the difference in shades I thought Swindon had maybe taken pity on it and outshopped it in green. Don't laugh, think D838 Rapid repainted maroon in September 1968!

 

I have seen those pics of 1408, also 1421 which coincidentally was the number of the lined green Hornby model I have had since 2003 and finally got around to renumbering to 1468 two weeks ago (the difference retirement makes....... however it's been in storage so long it now needs new traction tyres!!) This one worked the Fowey branch in 1961 (my chosen year for Cornish steam modelling) and it had a boiler top feed, yay! I also have a 1419 I picked up cheap a few years ago, this came fitted with etched plates, which is handy, and if it needs a repaint into black anyway the unnecessary top feed can be carved away - as The Johnster says, removing this and the plumbing and then patch-painting is not easy and rarely entirely successful in my experience (yes, weathering can hide things......if you do it!)

 

Funny story about 9635, in September 2016 while on holiday in Brixham we visited Trago Mills Newton Abbot where I bought a book, 'Western Branches, Western Byways' by Kevin McCormack which contains a photo of 9635 in very grubby GWR green preparing to leave Newquay for Truro in July 1961. Wow, I had to have a model of that! 20 minutes later I was viewing the indoor model railway there and in a display case was a Bachmann model of............9635 in GWR green!! I didn't buy it there and then because its smokebox door was missing, but my favourite preowned supplier had a mint one for sale at a nice price, and just last week I deleted the bufferbeam numbers and stuck a front numberplate on it (made up from an old SMS Scottish waterslide sheet, careful scalpel work required as they're all outlined in white). The loco needs toning down a bit though - way too green!

 

[Hal Nail]

1 hour ago, Neil Phillips said:

I have seen those pics of 1408, also 1421 which coincidentally was the number of the lined green Hornby model I have had since 2003 and finally got around to renumbering to 1468 two weeks ago (the difference retirement makes....... however it's been in storage so long it now needs new traction tyres!!) This one worked the Fowey branch in 1961 (my chosen year for Cornish steam modelling) and it had a boiler top feed, yay! I also have a 1419 I picked up cheap a few years ago, this came fitted with etched plates, which is handy, and if it needs a repaint into black anyway the unnecessary top feed can be carved away - as The Johnster says, removing this and the plumbing and then patch-painting is not easy and rarely entirely successful in my experience (yes, weathering can hide things......if you do it!)

 

I wanted a lined green without topfeed in 7mm some time ago and as a result did loads of research for a west country loco c1958 and drew a blank. I ended up doing 1451 and bending the timeframe as it lost its topfeed c1961/2 after a boiler swap. I now have a Dapol as 1419. ironically their black version has a top feed so I used their 58xx which came without and retro fitted the autogear.

[Halvarras]

Yep, that's what I would have done too in your shoes. Much easier to add bits than carve them off and have to (try to) patch it up.

 

I suppose I'm OK hijacking my own thread........here's a photo of another 1961 Truro allocated oddity, just completed, 5744 with spark arrester chimney removed (Truro also had another, 3709, although I already have 9635 with the later cab so the antiquated appearance of this one appealed more). This did not exactly bestow good looks on the poor thing so I deliberately used an old but serviceable split-frame model, obtained from the same source as 9635. The liner-only chimney was formed from a Tri-ang Hornby bogie rivet, I added a bag of 10 or 12 to a parts order from Blackwells of Hawkwell.......or was it East Kent Models?..... decades ago as I used to swap coach bogies around. A thin brass washer filed out to a tight fit around the"chimney" forms the flange visible in photos of the real one. (The large rivet with smaller coupling rivet inside is my proposed solution for engine exhausts in consideration of modifying a Bachmann Class 43 Warship to a Class 42, specifically D838 to D815).

 

The spare chimney didn't go to waste, it was reprofiled and added to a plain green Class 03 to create Cornwall's earliest example, also 1961, since Bachmann can't be bothered to do this version, for some reason having a fixation on the 36 locos out of 230 with conical chimneys......there must surely be demand for 3D printed 'flowerpot' exhausts to counter this by now? Swindon appears to have painted its Class 03 'flowerpots' black but those red rods are wrong I think - I painted them years ago.

In reality I'm a modeller of (a) first generation diesels and (b) Cornish railways, my work bench currently boasts Classes 50, 47 & 08 with that black 45xx which started all this sitting on a shelf for 'evaluation'!