Aston On Clun. A forgotten Great Western outpost.

[Donw]

Having started this hare running I should first explain. There is only one platform I believe o it would be unusual for two passenge trains to pass . Not impossible but not usual. It looks to me more like a station where a passenger could cross with a freight which can simpilfy the signalling a little. There is nothing wrong with the Captains diagram but it looks rather busier than normal for a single platform station.

I have been looking through ' A Historical Survey of Selected Great Western Stations' by  RH Clark I have only looked in the first vol as it was to hand.

 

First off the most common format for single platform stations is to have the platform along plain track with the loop and sidings either before or after the platform .

 

A couple of examples where the platform is at least partially alongside the loop. 

Holme Lacey 

From the Hereford end there is a fixed distant  (off scene)

An Advanced starter to Hereford

Then a home signal before the platform starts

the crossover to the loop is alongside the platform  on the loop side there is a starter to allow a train to cross to the main headed towards Hereford. There could be a ground signal with this starter seems odd having both.

At the end of the platform is another home protecting the crossover to the siding off the main not the loop placed the same side as the platform. The signal box is on the loop side by this crossover.

At the end of the siding a road bridge crosses the line and loop. A starter for Gloucester is placed before the bridge alongside the main.

The other side of the bridge is a crossover from the loop back to the main with a ground signal by the loop turnout . 

At the toe of the turnout on the main is a Home signal from the Gloucester direction for entry to the main/platform on the post is shown a GS type signal for access to the loop a little way out is an advanced starter   mush further out is a fixed distant from Gloucester.

The notes say two passenger trains could only pass in an emergency obviously goods train would use the loop for a passenger to pass.

 

Penrhyndeudraeth

had extra loops and a LC at one end  and looked much busier

from both approaches there was a distant then a home  starters either side of the platform  with grouns signals controlling access to the main from the big loop either end the where also ground signals controlling access from a smaller loop onto the main  and from a siding.

 

The Level crossing on the Portmadoc side is protected by the home and starter that end.

Things are a bit mad as  I am redecorating the railway room (under orders)  I will scan both pages for you when I get a chance.

 

I think the Penrhyndeudraeth scheme sounds better.

the distants can be regarded a fixed or working but will be off scene. you will have two homes two starters and two ground signals  for Aston. If a train needs to access the loop the normal procedure is to bring it to a halt at the Home then pull the Home off this ensure the train is going slow enough. Passenger trains would not cross unless there was an emergency.

Remember hand signal from the box an authorised moves where there is no signal provided.

 

Don 

 

[MrWolf]

I don't think that I could have asked for a more comprehensive set of answers than the last few posts, thanks everyone.

I've been digging around for pictures of St. Briavels, Kingsland, Ilminster et al. I've also managed to get hold of a copy of a book on the Wye valley line, as well as starting to trawl through my existing collection of books for prototype information. 

 

 

This was the first image Google offered up. 

[MrWolf]

If it helps to make sense of things against @Captain Kernow's very accurate track plan, here's some current pictures of the layout with all of the track fixed down.

 

This photo shows the whole of the station area, loop and level crossing just beyond the signal box. From the platelayers hut bottom centre to the fiddle yard behind the crossing house measures 2400mm.

 

 

The extent of the goods yard. The main line disappears to the right behind the crossing house towards the junction at Craven Arms.

 

 

The western end of the loop with the main line heading to the terminus at Clun. From the platelayers hut to the fiddle yard measures 1200mm.

 

images lost.

 

 

Edited August 26, 2022 by MrWolf
Image missing

[JustinDean]

Britain From Above - Aston on Clun 

 

 

[MrWolf]

That's about right, a field in the middle of nowhere.

I think that it will look better with signals. I've just noticed that the experimental sheep are all dead drunk on the platform.

[Tortuga]

Having finally printed the Templot plan for Alsop and been surprised by how long the loop is, I’m glad to find out Aston-on-Clun’s isn’t that much shorter!

[Regularity]

1 hour ago, MrWolf said:

That's about right, a field in the middle of nowhere.

I think that it will look better with signals.

It will, but what level of service is this supporting? Will there regularly be a goods train passing a passenger train, or will this be occasional?

[Nick C]

This is what I would suggest, based on the various GW diagrams I've looked at. @The Stationmaster may disagree, I'm not a GW expert!

Note that the homes are a coach length from the points, to allow for locking bars. The starters are at the fouling points, so if a train is standing at one, it doesn't stop another entering the loop. This means the one at the LC end will be some way down the platform. Distants are well off scene, and fixed (they'd be worked by 1 and 15 if they were working). The yellow ground signal allows movement in and out of the headshunt without the signalman getting involved. The advanced starter 4 is optional, as most shunting movements would use the headshunt and so not need to go onto the main. If movements into the loop are more common, you could add subsidiary signals to the homes as so - these would be short arms I think:

[Regularity]

14 minutes ago, Nick C said:

The starters are at the fouling points, so if a train is standing at one, it doesn't stop another entering the loop.

That’s a good point (sorry about the pun). If the loop wasn’t used for passing trains, then not an issue.

 

Not sure about the yellow ground disc: thought that was an LMS/LMR thing?

[Nick C]

20 minutes ago, Regularity said:

That’s a good point (sorry about the pun). If the loop wasn’t used for passing trains, then not an issue.

 

Not sure about the yellow ground disc: thought that was an LMS/LMR thing?

The Southern certainly used yellow shunts, and I'm sure they were mentioned on another GW thread, but as I say I'm not an expert! The SRS diagrams are too low-resolution to see.

 

Edit - there's one shown on the South Devon Railway's signalling page: https://sdrsignalling.com/Signal_Types.html

Edited December 16, 2021 by Nick C

[Regularity]

2 hours ago, Nick C said:

Edit - there's one shown on the South Devon Railway's signalling page: https://sdrsignalling.com/Signal_Types.html

Not being picky, but that’s a modern era preserved line. Not everything they do may reflect earlier practice.
For a start, there have been a lot of changes to the rule book since 1947, when the GWR ceased to exist as a legal entity, and we are talking about a branchline which may not have had any signalling changes (other than maybe replacing the full signal cabin with a ground frame released from a key on the train staff) since it was built 60-70 years before BR. A preserved line will operate under current rules and regulations.

 

This is why it is much easier to model a real place, or start by taking one as the basis for a model (assuming, of course, that sufficient information is available!)

[Donw]

I am sure the Great Western would have used a normal red ground signal the signal would only apply to the route over the crossover onto the main. Movement to the Headshunt would not need the signal.

 

Don

[Martin S-C]

On 11/12/2021 at 18:10, MrWolf said:

That was in fact the response to the suggestion of camping out on that beach in preference to a hotel with an actual bathroom.

 

 

 

The fireplace has a sufficient chimney - what's the problem. Though I agree the bedding looks a little lumpy.

[MrWolf]

9 hours ago, Tortuga said:

Having finally printed the Templot plan for Alsop and been surprised by how long the loop is, I’m glad to find out Aston-on-Clun’s isn’t that much shorter!

 

The maximum safe train length in the loop is 1450mm, the platform is 885mm usable, 1030mm total. The idea being that it can handle four 4 wheel carriages or two bogie carriages with ease. It's surprising how big such things are, even in this scale.

[MrWolf]

9 hours ago, Regularity said:

It will, but what level of service is this supporting? Will there regularly be a goods train passing a passenger train, or will this be occasional?

 

Good point. Whilst I haven't worked out an official WTT as yet, in addition to the regular pick up goods and passenger service, I'm wanting to run a fairly busy schedule of livestock trains using GW and LMS stock as well as timber trains using both four wheeled plank wagons and bogie flat wagons. The latter two are the real revenue earners and the only thing that would actually keep the line profitable.

[MrWolf]

6 hours ago, Nick C said:

This is what I would suggest, based on the various GW diagrams I've looked at. @The Stationmaster may disagree, I'm not a GW expert!

Note that the homes are a coach length from the points, to allow for locking bars. The starters are at the fouling points, so if a train is standing at one, it doesn't stop another entering the loop. This means the one at the LC end will be some way down the platform. Distants are well off scene, and fixed (they'd be worked by 1 and 15 if they were working). The yellow ground signal allows movement in and out of the headshunt without the signalman getting involved. The advanced starter 4 is optional, as most shunting movements would use the headshunt and so not need to go onto the main. If movements into the loop are more common, you could add subsidiary signals to the homes as so - these would be short arms I think:

 

That is really useful, thanks for your time and effort here, I think that even I can understand that one. I think that for the sake of sanity (and not repeatedly snapping things off!) I will prepare some appropriate signals and install them once I have finished the ground work and details behind the station platform.

So that gives me an order of works to get stuck into!

[MrWolf]

13 hours ago, Regularity said:

Not being picky, but that’s a modern era preserved line. Not everything they do may reflect earlier practice.
For a start, there have been a lot of changes to the rule book since 1947, when the GWR ceased to exist as a legal entity, and we are talking about a branchline which may not have had any signalling changes (other than maybe replacing the full signal cabin with a ground frame released from a key on the train staff) since it was built 60-70 years before BR. A preserved line will operate under current rules and regulations.

 

This is why it is much easier to model a real place, or start by taking one as the basis for a model (assuming, of course, that sufficient information is available!)

 

I see your point, a preserved line is generally a recreation, that has to comply at least to some extent with current regulations, the equipment available and the needs/ limitations of the current users.

You're almost making a model of a model.

Whilst I can appreciate that copying a prototype might be an easier option, comprises would have to be made particularly in size unless you have a barrack sized shed. 

There's also plenty of scope for pub bores to tell you how wrong it is too, (Though of course they rarely tell you how to do it right and can never show you how they did it right.) 

I have though taken my inspiration from actual places, (As you say, the level of available information is the biggest obstacle.) even if I have modified the result for my own purposes, I've been keen to keep things looking right, hence the daft questions.

The track plan is inspired by Shipston on Stour, the station building by Vowchurch and Peterchurch, crossing house by various PS&NWR / G&KER buildings, even the "new" bridge deck is inspired by Bourne End.

I think that I'd started with a totally fictional idea, I couldn't make it work.

So far with the help of so many on this site, I am slowly turning a railway inspired by one that was proposed but never built, into (hopefully) something  that could be believed was built.   

 

 

Edited December 17, 2021 by MrWolf
Typing with hind paws again...

[NHY 581]

31 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

 

I am slowly turning a railway inspired by one that was proposed but never built, into (hopefully) something that could be believed was built.

 

I think, Rob, that is a distinct probability given the effort you're putting in, coupled with a great deal of quality modelling and ability.

 

 

Rob. 

Edited December 16, 2021 by NHY 581

[St Enodoc]

12 hours ago, Nick C said:

The Southern certainly used yellow shunts, and I'm sure they were mentioned on another GW thread, but as I say I'm not an expert! The SRS diagrams are too low-resolution to see.

 

Edit - there's one shown on the South Devon Railway's signalling page: https://sdrsignalling.com/Signal_Types.html

 

9 hours ago, Regularity said:

Not being picky, but that’s a modern era preserved line. Not everything they do may reflect earlier practice.
For a start, there have been a lot of changes to the rule book since 1947, when the GWR ceased to exist as a legal entity, and we are talking about a branchline which may not have had any signalling changes (other than maybe replacing the full signal cabin with a ground frame released from a key on the train staff) since it was built 60-70 years before BR. A preserved line will operate under current rules and regulations.

 

This is why it is much easier to model a real place, or start by taking one as the basis for a model (assuming, of course, that sufficient information is available!)

 

9 hours ago, Donw said:

I am sure the Great Western would have used a normal red ground signal the signal would only apply to the route over the crossover onto the main. Movement to the Headshunt would not need the signal.

 

Don

The GWR certainly used yellow discs, in exactly the situation described earlier, although I don't know whether this was so at the period modelled, as they don't appear in the 1936 General Appendix.

 

Paging @The Stationmaster!

[MrWolf]

A bit of digging in the layout box of doom (which unlike the wagon box of doom is rapidly emptying) produced one of the Ratio GWR square post signal kits. 

I've decided to have a go at this for several reasons.

The Dapol items, whilst they look great are all £30 upwards apiece. I've read a fair bit about their reliability / longevity and it doesn't look great.

Metal kits / scratch building aids, again, cost and the fact that I am not exactly a signalling expert (like you hadn't figured that out already!)

I've built these before.

 

The only thing that I really don't like about these signals is the solid spectacle plates. I can only assume that it's because these kits are older than I am.

 

But as I have been unable to build anything else straight out of the box, I suppose that I have no excuse for not attempting to hack this about either. No going back now, better cut out the rest.

 

 

Pre breakfast modelling calls for:

 

 

 

 

Edited August 26, 2022 by MrWolf
Images missing

[Graham T]

Try filling them with Krystal kleer tinted with either some paint, or perhaps food colouring?

[MrWolf]

I've never used Krystal Kleer to be honest. I was going to over engineer it with a piece of very thin clear plastic stuck on the back, followed by tinted clear varnish.

[MrWolf]

Another thing that will need a bit of attention is the finial, I will have to put some little nicks in them to represent the slots in the prototype. Or maybe represent them with a little black paint.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 26, 2022 by MrWolf
Replaced picture

[Nick Gough]

Modelu sell finials with the slots in:

 

https://www.modelu3d.co.uk/product/2041/

[MrWolf]

Thanks Nick, that's saved a job and lifted the model a good bit. The finials are very noticeable, probably more so than the real ones are.

They should land in a few days time.