Aston On Clun. A forgotten Great Western outpost.

[JustinDean]

Have you considered using an MSE arm

and spectacle plate?

I only have one signal to model on Middleton Top (thankfully!) and bought the LNWR signal Ratio kit. I didn’t like the look of much beyond the post so ended up getting the MSE etch from Wizard Models which looks way better. This reminds me it’s been in primer for an age so I really must build it. 
 

Jay

[St Enodoc]

Just now, JustinDean said:

Have you considered using an MSE arm

and spectacle plate?

I only have one signal to model on Middleton Top (thankfully!) and bought the LNWR signal Ratio kit. I didn’t like the look of much beyond the post so ended up getting the MSE etch from Wizard Models which looks way better. This reminds me it’s been in primer for an age so I really must build it. 
 

Jay

For GWR signals I use Scalelink arms exclusively (usual disclaimer).

[JustinDean]

I’ve got to admit that for Llanyblod I’ve already bought a couple of the Dapol signals. Yes they’re expensive but I liked the idea of a working signal you can plonk into a hole on the baseboard. The reliability issues seem to come from not being operated with an appropriate 12VDC regulated power supply. 
 

Jay

[Martin S-C]

I am yet to tackle the issue of signals on my planned effort. Do the Dapol signals allow a servo to be attached so they clear slowly and a bounce can be incorporated or do they just clunk off and on like Peco point motors?

[MrWolf]

2 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

I am yet to tackle the issue of signals on my planned effort. Do the Dapol signals allow a servo to be attached so they clear slowly and a bounce can be incorporated or do they just clunk off and on like Peco point motors?

 

Pass. @chuffinghellwould probably know, he's managed to seriously modify s few.

[JustinDean]

5 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

I am yet to tackle the issue of signals on my planned effort. Do the Dapol signals allow a servo to be attached so they clear slowly and a bounce can be incorporated or do they just clunk off and on like Peco point motors?

I’ve not had them out of the box yet but it seems to have a built in solenoid in the base/tube so I doubt the movement will be as refined as what can be achieved with a servo. 
 

Jay

[Siberian Snooper]

On one of our club layouts, the Dapol motor failed and we fitted a Sg90 servo, I  don't have the details of how it was done and I think the layout is now in Ireland.

 

 

[Benbow]

I think many of the problems people have with the Dapol signals is operating them at too high a voltage. I have a dedicated 6v supply for mine and they work fine and at a more realistic speed.

[Martin S-C]

2 hours ago, Benbow said:

I think many of the problems people have with the Dapol signals is operating them at too high a voltage. I have a dedicated 6v supply for mine and they work fine and at a more realistic speed.

Do then go "clunk" and switch instantly like a Peco point motor does? I'm trying to get an idea of the various options out there for my own signals when I get around to installing them.

[Donw]

I do not actually remember that much bounce on LQ signals more a sort of clunk and the arm shaking a bit. Perhaps it was because most of the signals I saw were fairly close to the box. Or maybe it was more a feature of UQ signals.

Electronically generate bounce needs some sort of motor. I think there were some designs with a mechanical bounce with some kind of weight under the baseboard that could be solenoid operated. It is typical of scale models that things like solenoids work far to rapidly at small sizes. Servos can be slowed down. 

 

Don

[MrWolf]

I do recall reading of signals on a layout operated with good old fishing line through eyelets which had a light expansion spring for the return and a sort of adjustable pendulum arrangement under the baseboard to give "just the right amount of bounce".

[Siberian Snooper]

The MERG Servo4 boards can be reprogrammed to give the bounce.

 

 

[NHY 581]

Ratio still do their signal operating kits. Twine, springs, eyes etc. 

 

Rob. 

[Peter Kazmierczak]

10 hours ago, Donw said:

I do not actually remember that much bounce on LQ signals more a sort of clunk and the arm shaking a bit. Perhaps it was because most of the signals I saw were fairly close to the box. Or maybe it was more a feature of UQ signals.

Electronically generate bounce needs some sort of motor. I think there were some designs with a mechanical bounce with some kind of weight under the baseboard that could be solenoid operated. It is typical of scale models that things like solenoids work far to rapidly at small sizes. Servos can be slowed down. 

 

Don

 

I agree Don; more a "clunk" of metal against metal with the LQ.

Whereas UQ seemed to have the help of gravity more and hence a pronounced bounce.

[Captain Kernow]

Hello Rob, sorry for the lack of comments over the last couple of days, due to family and domestic stuff.

 

Just agreeing with John (St E) first, the GW most certainly used yellow ground discs and there are still a number in place on the network (don't ask me where, but if I find a prototype photo I'll post it up).

 

The official wording in the Signalman's Instructions read something along the lines of 'A yellow shunt signal may be passed at caution for movements in a direction to which the signal, when cleared, does not apply'.

 

In other words, the yellow ground disc would remain at 'caution' and could be passed multiple times, without any reference to the signalman, for movements along the headshunt, but would have to be cleared for movements onto the main line.

 

I do like Nick's diagram here:

 

However, if goods trains are using the 'loop' and if it is intended to start a goods train towards Clun or towards the main line junction (sorry, is that Craven Arms?), then I would be fundamentally uneasy about allowing a train to enter the Single Line on the authority of a shunt signal. Nick has provided No.4 in the Clun direction, which meets that need fine, but I would suggest you need an equivalent (?No.14?) going towards Craven Arms.

 

Having advanced starters also protects the Single Line from any shunt movements that require to occupy it or otherwise foul the clearing point (now wishing to teach anyone how to suck eggs, but the 'Clearing Point' is an operational signalling term (in Absolute Block signalling terms) that denotes a length of line that needs to be clear, with the route set and locked, for a train to be accepted from the box in rear. On single lines with crossing loops, unless there were Outer Homes, this usually meant the line in advance of the Home signal to a distance of 400 yards (often this was taken to mean the loop line right up to the Loop Starting signal in the same direction). There were rules to cover what to do, if the 'Clearing Point' was not clear (called the Warning Arrangement, but that could only be used where specially authorised).

 

So, with No. 14 Home signal located where it is on Nick's diagram, you would not be able to shunt onto the main line, with a train approaching or accepted from Clun.

 

If you had a passenger train in the section towards Clun (or Craven Arms) and you then wanted to occupy the running line for goods train shunting purposes, an Advance Starter would be there to protect the Single Line and that receding passenger train, from your goods train shunt movement.

 

If there was no 'receding passenger train' in either single line section and no other train was accepted from the next signal box and there was no Advanced Starter, then you could occupy the Single Line section at Aston-on-Clun with a shunting movement by using the 'Blocking Back' signalling regulation, which allowed you to occupy or foul the Single Line, with the permission of the signal man in the next box concerned (thus allowing you not to build advanced starting signals).

 

I suggested the comprehensive diagram that I did, back along, on the basis that this would be a very busy location and I wanted to give you the maximum flexibility. If it now transpires that traffic levels will be less than this very busy level, then you can indeed start removing signals from the diagram.

 

In all honesty, I can't really see Aston-on-Clun being such a busy location and a signalling diagram along the lines of the Wye Valley stations or similar would almost certainly be the most prototypical.

 

As such, you could always install such a 'minimalist' signalling diagram and then invoke Rule 1. In saying that, I am not trying to be flippant, but you could argue that 'extra-curricular' shunting movements are being undertaken in connection with Special Traffic Working and (without doubt) under the personal supervision of the District Signalling Inspector or his representative.

 

[Captain Kernow]

With regard to the question of working signals, whilst the Ratio plastic kits are good and were excellent for their day, in terms of operational robustness and bearing in mind the fact that you are probably (?) going to use some kind of electrical motor operation for them, you can't beat the strength of an all-metal signal (I have no personal experience of the Dapol working signals, which also look good, but of course, you would be reliant on the configuration, height etc. that they can supply).

 

I personally use M.S.E. (from Wizard) components for my working signals now. They do a very usable whitemetal GW square taper post, to which you would attach the necessary brass and whitemetal fittings.

 

For the transparent spectacle plates, do remember (sorry, not trying to teach egg-sucking again) that the 'green' (ie. 'proceed') spectacle plate was blue, due to the effect of the yellow paraffin flame behind it, that they gave a green 'proceed' aspect.

 

For such aspects, I usually use the coloured, transparent wrappers from Quality Street chocs, cut to size and carefully glued behind your pre-painted spectacle plate  - you get to each chocolates when building signals, what's not to like like?

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by Captain Kernow

[Mike_Walker]

Probably the best known survivor is SH33 on the Middle Siding at Worcester Shrub Hill.

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by Mike_Walker

[St Enodoc]

1 minute ago, Mike_Walker said:

Probably the best known survivor is SH33 on the Middle Siding at Worcester Shrub Hill.

 

In earlier times the disc face was white, not black. I don't know when this changed (presumably it was to improve the contrast between the yellow stripe and the disc).

[chuffinghell]

20 hours ago, MrWolf said:

 

Pass. @chuffinghellwould probably know, he's managed to seriously modify s few.

Thanks for the mention Rob but as yet I’ve not messed with the internals although I do know that if you take apart the threaded section at the bottom you can get at the rod so it’s feasible do something.

 

I thought of a cam type arrangement that allowed the arm to drop instead of being driven, perhaps a weighted lever under the baseboard that was allowed to fall under its own weight and stopped on a spring to simulate the bounce?

[JustinDean]

Rob if you need some Qualify Street wrappers for lenses I already have some in abundance. 
 

Jay

[Regularity]

5 hours ago, Siberian Snooper said:

The MERG Servo4 boards can be reprogrammed to give the bounce.

I was immediately reminded of a jingle for what I had assumed to be a long forgotten advert and product: brylcreem.

4 minutes ago, JustinDean said:

Rob if you need some Qualify Street wrappers for lenses I already have some in abundance. 

You are denying him the opportunity to collect his own in a most enjoyable way…

Edited December 18, 2021 by Regularity

[Captain Kernow]

Rob, re Quality Street, assume a major failure rate, so get a big tin!

[MrWolf]

Wow, that got rolling quick! 

Firstly, a thank you to everyone for their informative comments that are fast becoming an education in signalling, both real and model.

 

The ancient Ratio signals are, for want of a better explanation, an exercise in time and financial expediency. I will be attempting to get them to work remotely, however there is a long term plan afoot to replace them with hand built items. (As soon as I can figure out what I need to buy in order to build them and learn how to actually do it.)

At least the Ratio items are a cheap way to learn about making "working" signals.

It looks like I have quite a bit to be getting on with and at least I can make a start, knowing the number and type of signals required.

 

Which believe me is a giant leap from the beginning of the week!

 

[MrWolf]

2 hours ago, Regularity said:

I was immediately reminded of a jingle for what I had assumed to be a long forgotten advert and product: brylcreem.

 

It's still available, I wouldn't have spent the last three decades roaring about on ancient British motorbikes and indulging in the associated esoterica without being aware of it. Besides, it's still only about 1963 isn't it?

 

2 hours ago, Regularity said:

You are denying him the opportunity to collect his own in a most enjoyable way…

 

Chocolate is a bit of a rarity in this house, I can take it or leave it.

Miss R loves chocolate, but says that she loves having a waist much more. (A waist is sadly something of a rarity amongst today's young women, I blame both the media and the fast food industry.) She will get a chocolate bar, eat two rows and then give it me to hide it untill the next day.

So a tin of quality street will be a case of me eating enough red or blue wrapped ones for layout purposes and then giving swmbo a daily ration until I can get to the best part.

That of filling the empty tin with surplus nuts and bolts etc to maintain what must be at least a hundred year old tradition...

[Regularity]

1 minute ago, MrWolf said:

Besides, it's still only about 1963 isn't it?

Before I was born, by more than a year, but my parents did get married then.

 

Besides, on this thread, isn’t it closer to 1936 than 1963?

(And speaking personally, closer to to 1903-1906…)