Bath Rd intercity class 47 diagrams / maintenance

[125_driver]

The attached photo is from a book about the class 47/8s and is sample loco diagrams from 1992 to 1993. 

My question is this. With the vast majority of the IC 47/8s allocated to Bath Rd in Bristol at this point, why does not a single 47/8 diagram start or finish at Bristol?

 

Where there lots of long ECS moves to Swansea and Plymouth?

 

Or was the maintenance of the locos actually carried out at other depots like Laira and Old Oak? 

 

Just a bit perplexed, it would be the equivalent today of allocating the scotrail HSTs to York!

 

Any suggestions welcome.

[The Stationmaster]

It doesn't really make much sense without the complete working for each diagram and the way in which the diagrams rotated (or if they were cyclic diagrams).  Thus we don't know if the loco worked a train all the way through (e.g. 12.05 York to Poole) and what happened to it once it got to Poole - if indeed it actually worked through to Poole. We can surmise it next worked the 05.40 Poole but where did it go for fuel between the two workings?

 

Inevitably fuelling and fuel point inspections will have been carried out all over the place and probably A Exams as well (not that they were diagrammed by then on the WR).  In this sort of very simplified presentation it ends up leaving far more questions than answers I'm afraid.

[125_driver]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

It doesn't really make much sense without the complete working for each diagram and the way in which the diagrams rotated (or if they were cyclic diagrams).  Thus we don't know if the loco worked a train all the way through (e.g. 12.05 York to Poole) and what happened to it once it got to Poole - if indeed it actually worked through to Poole. We can surmise it next worked the 05.40 Poole but where did it go for fuel between the two workings?

 

Inevitably fuelling and fuel point inspections will have been carried out all over the place and probably A Exams as well (not that they were diagrammed by then on the WR).  In this sort of very simplified presentation it ends up leaving far more questions than answers I'm afraid.

I believe they are exactly what the loco worked, but minus the ECS and l/e moves. 

So york to Poole I think it would work throughout, as there are several diagrams there that I'm pretty sure in 92 to 93 are partial journeys (ie the 47 swapped for an electric) including diagram 18 which involves working Liverpool to Preston, so i think it is fairly safe to say they are likely to be the full working (in passenger service anyway minus the ECS bits)

[rob D2]

Well all the RFD 47s were allocated to Sheffield, but I’d wager there wasn’t many diagrams from there ?

 

I guess bath road was for heavy maintenance, and they would still do A or B checks at out stations such as old oak common 

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

Because of the amount of depots that could do lower level exams on 47's there wouldn't have been any need for them to go back to "the mothership" other than for major exams or large repairs (eg engine swaps). Clearly they are the full diagrams as worked by the locos as, for example, loco 8 and loco 16 are partial workings of much longer trains. Even better than that were the spoon diagrams in the post-privatisation (and therefore post Bath Road era) when the GW fleet was all maintained at Landore, and worked exclusively on Paddington to West of England trains. Old Oak (south side), St Philips Marsh and Laira would have had little or nothing to do with 47's by then due to lack of facility or capacity in the case of Laira who had become "HST central" for well over half the total HST power car fleet, and that is a LOT of mileage wear and tear to make good!

[stovepipe]

It looks like they are arranged in some kind of cyclic order groups 1-3, 4-6, 7-9, 11 and 12 and so on. Most of them have at least one leg through Bristol, which gives the opportunity to swap a loco in and out of traffic as required, in the timetabled stop. For the later diagrams Bristol and Birmingham are regularly linked giving the opportunity for a loco to work north from Bristol to take up a duty in the later diagrams, from 16 onwards, the following day. In a number of cases there would be a change to AC traction at Birmingham in any case, so the loco's can easily be swapped there too.

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

Spotted a problem with that set of diagrams, loco 22 passes itself going the other way at around 0300 in the Taunton area!

 

[Flood]

3 hours ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

Spotted a problem with that set of diagrams, loco 22 passes itself going the other way at around 0300 in the Taunton area!

 

Not when it is sitting at Penzance all day.

[brushman47544]

On 02/12/2020 at 17:15, rob D2 said:

I guess bath road was for heavy maintenance, and they would still do A or B checks at out stations such as old oak common 

Exactly. If you look at 1S76, although straight through Reading without reversal, there is a loco change diagrammed. The arriving loco running light to OC before later working from Paddington and the replacement loco coming light from OC. From memory the loco didn’t always change if the diagrammed loco from Reading was failed or on maintenance at OC.

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

5 hours ago, Flood said:

Not when it is sitting at Penzance all day.

Err, no. How could the same loco have done C02 and A03 on the same night, both working throughout. It would have to be a 23rd loco like the S03 and O13 needs two locos in the separate table in the bottom right corner.

[Flood]

Err yes.

Paddington 23.59 (public timetable), arrives Penzance 08.19

Penzance 22.15, arrives Paddington 06.08

 

Strictly speaking they depart on two different days but overnight diagrams, especially those close to midnight, sometimes combined the two days into one diagram.

 

Another example:

1987-8

23.59 King's Cross - Edinburgh

10.30 Edinburgh - Aberdeen

14.15 Aberdeen - Edinburgh

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

2 hours ago, Flood said:

Err yes.

Paddington 23.59 (public timetable), arrives Penzance 08.19

Penzance 22.15, arrives Paddington 06.08

 

Strictly speaking they depart on two different days but overnight diagrams, especially those close to midnight, sometimes combined the two days into one diagram.

 

Another example:

1987-8

23.59 King's Cross - Edinburgh

10.30 Edinburgh - Aberdeen

14.15 Aberdeen - Edinburgh

Err, still no.

 

Loco 22 works Monday's 2359 Paddington-Penzance, stays in Penzance Tuesday 0819-2215 and works back to London, arriving there 0608 on Wednesday morning. So what loco works Monday's 2215 Penzance-Paddington or Tuesdays 2359 Paddington-Penzance?

[Flood]

As The Stationmaster says we don't have all the fueling moves but a reasonable guesstimate would be:

Loco 1.

Sunday night        2355 Paddington-Penzance (dia 22)

Monday night       2215 Penzance-Paddington (dia 22)

Tuesday                 spare

Wednesday           0626 Paddington-Birmingham (dia 19)

                                1106 Birmingham-Paddington (dia 19)

Thursday               0600 Paddington-Preston (dia 20)

                                1528 Preston-Paddington (dia 20)

Thurs night           2355 Paddington-Penzance (dia 22)

Friday                     continue on dia 22

 

Loco 2.

Monday                  0600 Paddington-Preston (dia 20)

                                1528 Preston-Paddington (dia 20)

Monday night        2355 Paddington-Penzance (dia 22)

Tuesday night        2215 Penzance-Paddington (dia 22)

Wednesday            spare

Thursday                0626 Paddington-Birmingham (dia 19)

                                 1106 Birmingham-Paddington (dia 19)

Friday                      back to dia 20

 

Loco 3.

Monday                  0626 Paddington-Birmingham (dia 19)

                                 1106 Birmingham-Paddington (dia 19)

Tuesday                  0600 Paddington-Preston (dia 20)

                                 1528 Preston-Paddington (dia 20)

Tuesday night        2355 Paddington-Penzance (dia 22)

Wednesday night  2215 Penzance-Paddington (dia 22)

Thursday                 spare

Friday                       back to dia 19

 

Loco 4.

Monday                   spare

Tuesday                  0626 Paddington-Birmingham (dia 19)

                                 1106 Birmingham-Paddington (dia 19)

Wednesday            0600 Paddington-Preston (dia 20)

                                 1528 Preston-Paddington (dia 20)

Wednesday night  2355 Paddington-Penzance (dia 22)

Thursday night      2215 Penzance-Paddington (dia 22)

 Friday                     spare

 

The diagrams listed in the book are only the daily service out and back requirements. The weekly diagram would run through the daily services as above but there was always a chance that a C or D exam might be needed at Bristol so a loco at Paddington may be deliberately sent on the service to Birmingham to be then allotted a service to Bristol. A replacement was then obviously needed which is why it was hoped that someone had checked the maintenance requirements at the end of the previous week and had ensured that replacements were 1) available and 2) in the right place.

Another option would be to swap locos requiring maintenance when they arrived at Bristol on the Night Riviera. Although the Bristol stop wasn't advertised to the public the up and down sleepers both took that route.

 

I've subsequently checked and there were 28 long range 47s allocated to Bristol in 1992. With 22 diagrams that's an availability of 78.5% - that seems pretty high for B.R. locos at that time.

 

 

Edited December 4, 2020 by Flood

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

You've made a wild assumption there that V98 gets in (from Scotland via Manchester) with enough time for the stock to be shunt released and the loco attached the front of the down sleeper for a right time departure! More likely looking at them that loco 20 next works loco 16 and the sleepers are self contained diagrams. All your writing above does is prove beyond any argument that you need FOUR locos to run diagrams 19, 20 and 22 ergo you need 23 locos to run the 22 diagrams shown...

[brushman47544]

On 03/12/2020 at 20:02, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

Err, no. How could the same loco have done C02 and A03 on the same night, both working throughout. It would have to be a 23rd loco like the S03 and O13 needs two locos in the separate table in the bottom right corner.

47555 The Commonwealth Spirit was known for seeming to be in two places at the same time.

[brushman47544]

On 04/12/2020 at 11:19, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

You've made a wild assumption there that V98 gets in (from Scotland via Manchester) with enough time for the stock to be shunt released and the loco attached the front of the down sleeper for a right time departure! More likely looking at them that loco 20 next works loco 16 and the sleepers are self contained diagrams. All your writing above does is prove beyond any argument that you need FOUR locos to run diagrams 19, 20 and 22 ergo you need 23 locos to run the 22 diagrams shown...

The Paddington working locos will have cycled through 1S76 as well, l/e to Reading.

[adb968008]

That diagram map is gold.

 

whilst I don't have the details, I can offer some experience..

 

I used to regularly see Western Region 47’s on Preston to Manchester direction on summer evenings.. your diagram below explains it !

 

only 1 a day, the others could be anything, from 47/3 to NSE to 47/7.., though more often than not, just a large logo. But I recall a definite turn that would produce a WR 47, they werent always exclusively bath road 47’s, I recall both Fire Fly, Royal Worcester and Windsor Castle (old intercity back then) passed through as well as 47573 in NSE and GW150’s..  a WR 47 was a reason to go see it, and you were pretty much guarenteed a WR 47.

 

I actually have this grotty picture infront of me as I read this..47473 was a Bath Rd class 47, seen departing Bolton..I probably chewed the picture as it wasn't a glamorous one.

 

Crewe / Bristol 47’s got very interchangeable, until Scotrail released its 47/4’s (Sprinterisation) then I think much of it stopped as sectorisation grew, though there was a period where Parcels 47’s were “borrowed” by Intercity on a daily basis.

Before sectorisation, locos used to wander very far from home for prolonged periods... Stratfords 47579 spent a summer in Lancashire once... it was never allocated up there (indeed it too was a WR for a time), but it took up residence for 3-4 months regularly running Bolton - Crewe vans amongst others, we got fed up of it, we assumed crewe had “borrowed it”.

 

I think as far as reliability goes, Scottish and Western region 47’s always looked smarter kept, sounded better, the 47’s on trans Pennine seemed knackered by comparison. 

Edited December 11, 2020 by adb968008