YORK for York Show 2023 and beyond

[kirmies]

7 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

I do! the loops at the back were far more exciting than the scenic bit at the front!

Yes, the Blea Moor fiddle yard did have the occasional exciting moment! 😕

 

The front was designed to be a more relaxed 'watching the trains go by' so did indeed tend to be less exciting!

[kirmies]

The back wall is now finished and I'm really pleased with the way it looks:

The back wall is slightly above the platform surface at the moment because there's thin layer of 1.6mm ply to make the top skin of the platform so, hopefully, when that's been fitted the bottom of the wall will be flush with the platform surface.

Next job = dismantle the roof for painting and to allow the trackwork to be installed.

[Andy Ross]

That is looking really good and you cannot tell which beams I put together. 
 

Andy

[kirmies]

16 hours ago, Trams and Locos said:

That is looking really good and you cannot tell which beams I put together. 
 

Andy

If anything, yours are the neater ones!!😍🤩

[hmrspaul]

Even Julie said that is impressive! 

 

Paul

[kirmies]

I said I'd try to explain how the automated queue system I'm using works so here goes.......

 

I used the same system on the Blea Moor fiddle yard and it worked extremely well and reliably so it has been used again (both the design and the electrical equipment):

 

Essentially magnets in each brake van trigger reed switches in the track which (via latching relays) control dead sections in the track. When a brake van passes over a reed switch it latches the relay controlling the next dead section back along the track allowing the next train to move forward and unlatches the relay controlling the dead section the brake van has just passed over so that this next train will stop when it reaches that dead section.

 

By this means, when a train is driven across the visible part of the layout, the trains behind it automatically move up the queue. The idea is there is always a dead section between trains so pile ups, at least in theory, should never happen and, if a train splits or stops, the system grinds to a halt until the fault is investigated and sorted.

 

This diagram shows how it works:

 

 

In this example there are 4 trains (trains 1-4) separated by short dead sections (A-D) with a read switch in front of each. The 4 steps shown here should illustrate how it all works

 

At step 1 a train is moving forward from A because the dead section is live, all the other trains are stopped because the locos are standing on dead dead sections.

 

At step 2 the brake van at the end of train 1 is passing over the reed switch in front of A. This causes the section at A to go dead and the one at B to go live and so train 2 starts to advance.

 

By step 3 train 2’s brake van is passing over the reed switch in front of B making the dead section there dead and the one at C live so train 3 starts advancing.

 

At step 4 train 2 has reached dead section A (which was switched off by the magnet in train 1’s brake van) so stops. Train 3’s brake van is passing over reed switch C making the dead section there dead and the one at D live meaning train 4 starts to move forward.

 

Just after step 4 train 3 will reach dead section B and stop. Not long after that train 4 will reach dead section C and also stop.

 

So, all the trains have moved forward one place in the queue but have always been separated by a dead section.

 

The YORK/Ivybridge return curves have a total of 22 sections as against the 4 in the diagram but the system is the same. This means there is capacity for around 18 trains (there always need to be some empty sections for trains to advance to).

 

Sounds complicated but is actually very simple and effective.

[bradfordbuffer]

5 minutes ago, kirmies said:

I said I'd try to explain how the automated queue system I'm using works so here goes.......

 

I used the same system on the Blea Moor fiddle yard and it worked extremely well and reliably so it has been used again (both the design and the electrical equipment):

 

Essentially magnets in each brake van trigger reed switches in the track which (via latching relays) control dead sections in the track. When a brake van passes over a reed switch it latches the relay controlling the next dead section back along the track allowing the next train to move forward and unlatches the relay controlling the dead section the brake van has just passed over so that this next train will stop when it reaches that dead section.

 

By this means, when a train is driven across the visible part of the layout, the trains behind it automatically move up the queue. The idea is there is always a dead section between trains so pile ups, at least in theory, should never happen and, if a train splits or stops, the system grinds to a halt until the fault is investigated and sorted.

 

This diagram shows how it works:

 

 

In this example there are 4 trains (trains 1-4) separated by short dead sections (A-D) with a read switch in front of each. The 4 steps shown here should illustrate how it all works

 

At step 1 a train is moving forward from A because the dead section is live, all the other trains are stopped because the locos are standing on dead dead sections.

 

At step 2 the brake van at the end of train 1 is passing over the reed switch in front of A. This causes the section at A to go dead and the one at B to go live and so train 2 starts to advance.

 

By step 3 train 2’s brake van is passing over the reed switch in front of B making the dead section there dead and the one at C live so train 3 starts advancing.

 

At step 4 train 2 has reached dead section A (which was switched off by the magnet in train 1’s brake van) so stops. Train 3’s brake van is passing over reed switch C making the dead section there dead and the one at D live meaning train 4 starts to move forward.

 

Just after step 4 train 3 will reach dead section B and stop. Not long after that train 4 will reach dead section C and also stop.

 

So, all the trains have moved forward one place in the queue but have always been separated by a dead section.

 

The YORK/Ivybridge return curves have a total of 22 sections as against the 4 in the diagram but the system is the same. This means there is capacity for around 18 trains (there always need to be some empty sections for trains to advance to).

 

Sounds complicated but is actually very simple and effective.

Yep crystal clear.....I was lost at.....'I said'....🤣

 

All very cleaver stuff think there will be twice as many spectator's for train staging area. TSA?....coz can't call it a fiddle yard!

From departing scenic area to reappearing how many feet does a train travel approx?

[TEAMYAKIMA]

45 minutes ago, kirmies said:

Essentially magnets in each brake van trigger reed switches in the track which (via latching relays) control dead sections in the track. When a brake van passes over a reed switch it latches the relay controlling the next dead section back along the track allowing the next train to move forward and unlatches the relay controlling the dead section the brake van has just passed over so that this next train will stop when it reaches that dead section.

 

I don't model British and so I seldom look at British layout threads, but I'm glad that I did in your case as your fiddle yard idea has got me thinking. I have a large 'exhibition only' (very) foreign layout and so I am very keen to keep operator numbers (and hence expenses) down. As a consequence, I have had to simplify some of my fiddle yard roads to save on one dedicated FY operative which has led to a reduction in train formations, but I think I can use a version of your system to re-introduce several missing trains without the need of an extra operative.

 

Many thanks

[kirmies]

6 hours ago, bradfordbuffer said:

From departing scenic area to reappearing how many feet does a train travel approx?

 

There are 11 sections in each direction all the same length and capable of holding a 10 coach train, say around 5 ft. So distance from leaving the scenic section in one direction and reappearing in the other = approx. 55ft.

 

Much like the trains on Copenhagen Fields, YORK's trains are going to need to be built with high mileage in mind!

[Barry Ten]

Great stuff Peter. Sorry I missed this rather fantastic thread until now.

 

Nice to catch up briefly at the Bristol show. I remember you mentioning the swift boxes!

[kirmies]

As reported in this thread a while ago, the YORK station roof board will be making its first public appearance at Larkrail in a couple of weeks. This will be its ONLY outing before the whole layout premiers at the York Show next Easter.

 

Larkrail’s approach has rather focused my mind on getting it to a presentable state and the two main things I’m hoping to get done by then are painting the roof and laying the track. More on the first later but, for now, a bit about the track.

 

I’m using 2mm Association Easitrak and my main observation is how incredibly well named it is – it is SO easy! The Easitrak PVA glue gives an ideal combination of immediate grip to hold a section of track in place whilst allowing sufficient movement for long enough to get everything properly adjusted.

 

A couple of things I’ve used to aid this process are the late Keith Armes suggestion of putting just ONE rail in the sections of track before gluing them down and only sliding the second rail in once the glue is properly set. This prevents the annoying habit of, every time you curve one bit of a section one way it produces another curve the opposite way further along.

 

The other is I made myself some simple jigs to space the outside tracks a consistent distance from the platform edge and to space adjacent tracks at a constant distance apart. This were milled from 6mm Tufnol and worked much better than I could ever have imagined. Because the platform edge was CNC routed, its curve is a consistent one, so if the track follows it, the curve will be spot on.

Despite sticking to the universal 2mm mantra of proceeding slowing, gently and carefully, the track laying has been remarkably quick aided by the accelerated drying time of the glue in the current warm temperatures. I have always been advised (by Mike Edge amongst others) to lay track in a heatwave. In the UK this is usually quite hard to organise but, by happy coincidence, I’ve achieved perfect timing!

[2mmKiwi]

Having recently stopped at York station on my way to the National Railway museum I now have a first hand appreciation of this wonderful project.

Well done on your progress to date and best wishes for its completion.

SteveM

[kirmies]

On 11/07/2022 at 04:54, 2mmKiwi said:

Having recently stopped at York station on my way to the National Railway museum I now have a first hand appreciation of this wonderful project.

Well done on your progress to date and best wishes for its completion.

SteveM

Thanks Steve! And good to meet you at the Derby Jubilee event the other week. St Ives WILL get finished some day!

Edited July 15, 2022 by kirmies
Correcting typos

[kirmies]

Whilst laying down the basic trackwork proved much quicker than I anticipated, painting the roof has, on the other hand, been every bit as long and painstaking a job as I feared it might be.

 

The thing is, although it takes apart into 3 sections, these sections are still quite big. So, first problem, how to clean it? Answer, in the bath!

The towel is to prevent scratching the bath's enamel surface. An entire bottle of Cif and much scrubbing with a toothbrush later and I'm ready for priming:

Whilst I'd normally cover stuff being painted to prevent dust landing, I just didn't have anything big enough for this so I converted the entire workshop into as near a dust free environment as possible (basically not doing ANYTHING else in there for the duration of painting). This combined with fast drying acrylic paint I'm using seems to be working well.

The painting 'schedule' had been worked out with the back wall roof sections so:

1. Sand coloured primer (lots of nooks and crannies so took a while)
2. Pale cream colour (ditto)
3. Then mask off the cream coloured areas priot to painting the rest black(ish).

I've just reached the end of stage 3 and, whilst stages 1 & 2 did take a while, this took SEVERAL DAYS. But then with 81 roof sections and at least 8 pieces of Tamiya masking tape per section........that's alot of masking!

 

The really fiddly bits (e.g. the longitudinal beams with the scrollwork on them) got masked using Mr. Hobby Masking Sol R - a more modern version of the old Humbrol Maskol.

Meanwhile, the columns have been primed, sprayed cream and masked prior to the tops and bottoms getting sprayed brown:

This does look a bit like something you might find on a hillside overlooking Athens but it works well.

 

Today's job (before it gets too hot) = the next stage of spraying! Wish me luck.

[kirmies]

With Larkrail tomorrow I can reveal that YORK is back together and ready to go but it was close (3pm this afternoon!). Fortunately, I reckoned I had a couple of days in hand which was just as well as it turned it…….

I didn’t!

The Tamiya masking tape worked brilliantly. The liquid masking fluid less so as it was a total pain to remove. I’ve used this stuff before very successfully but not this time - maybe it was the hot weather!

I’ve done a quick weathering job for tomorrow using my favourite Abteilung 502 Urban Industry Dirt powder . This looks like a simple grey colour but it’s much more subtle and complex than that giving red rust tones in places and looking very different depending what colour surface it’s going on.

Weathering in 2mm is a matter if understating so, to my eye at least, this is a good start and I’ll give some time and thought to what else it needs. As with everything to do with this roof, there’s a lot of it so it took ages - around 6 hours to put this layer of powder on.

Before on the right, after on the left!

For the lengthways beams I drew the fancy scroll work full etch thickness with the surrounding beam half etched. This was then soldered onto a plain second layer for strength. The idea was to paint the beams, gently scrape off the paint on the scroll work and then metal black it. I hadn’t tried this technique before but I couldn’t think of any other way of doing it and it’s worked well.

In a few days time I’ll post some photos of what the whole station now looks like partly to protect Larkrail’s world exclusive first view status but mostly because I haven’t had time to take any!

 

Looking forward to seeing you there tomorrow!

[kirmies]

Grateful thanks are due to everyone who was SO positive about YORK at Larkrail yesterday. Having spent an awful lot of hours working on it (particularly recently), I was tending to see only the things that are wrong with it. Seeing it through many other people's eyes has made me realise that there is MUCH that is right about it and how well it works as a concept.

As promised, for those who were unable to attend the excellent event which was Larkrail 2022, here are some photos taken this morning:

[PaulRhB]

4 hours ago, kirmies said:

Grateful thanks are due to everyone who was SO positive about YORK at Larkrail yesterday. Having spent an awful lot of hours working on it (particularly recently), I was tending to see only the things that are wrong with it. Seeing it through many other people's eyes has made me realise that there is MUCH that is right about it and how well it works as a concept.

 

 

Well this was totally new to me at Larkrail but I spent quite a bit of time at York in the 80’s and this just captured that huge sweeping roof that was so awe inspiring back then. 
I can’t wait to see the finished layout you explained :) 

 

This is York to me

[nick_bastable]

On 22/07/2022 at 18:36, kirmies said:

With Larkrail tomorrow I can reveal that YORK is back together and ready to go but it was close (3pm this afternoon!). Fortunately, I reckoned I had a couple of days in hand which was just as well as it turned it…….

I didn’t!

The Tamiya masking tape worked brilliantly. The liquid masking fluid less so as it was a total pain to remove. I’ve used this stuff before very successfully but not this time - maybe it was the hot weather!

I’ve done a quick weathering job for tomorrow using my favourite Abteilung 502 Urban Industry Dirt powder . This looks like a simple grey colour but it’s much more subtle and complex than that giving red rust tones in places and looking very different depending what colour surface it’s going on.

Weathering in 2mm is a matter if understating so, to my eye at least, this is a good start and I’ll give some time and thought to what else it needs. As with everything to do with this roof, there’s a lot of it so it took ages - around 6 hours to put this layer of powder on.

Before on the right, after on the left!

For the lengthways beams I drew the fancy scroll work full etch thickness with the surrounding beam half etched. This was then soldered onto a plain second layer for strength. The idea was to paint the beams, gently scrape off the paint on the scroll work and then metal black it. I hadn’t tried this technique before but I couldn’t think of any other way of doing it and it’s worked well.

In a few days time I’ll post some photos of what the whole station now looks like partly to protect Larkrail’s world exclusive first view status but mostly because I haven’t had time to take any!

 

Looking forward to seeing you there tomorrow!

truly excellent work look forward to seeing  it one day

 

the Abteilung 502 Urban Industry Dirt powder you  use do you fix it with anything?

 

[Middlepeak]

Peter,

 

A real treat to see this yesterday. Instantly recognisable and full marks for the exceptional modelling of the sweeping ironwork of the overall roof. With such a repetitive structure it's essential that the even spacing of columns is maintained, which you have achieved perfectly. Once the track and buildings are completed, I look forward to seeing how you portray the hustle and bustle of the station without overdoing it. One of the advantages of doing it in 2mmFS is that your eye can initially take in the whole of the scene before focusing on the detail. I hope that feature can be maintained.

 

Thanks for your contribution to what was an excellent day.

 

Geraint

[chrisveitch]

Great work Peter, and I’m really looking forward to Easter next year. 
 

I’m always impressed with the original presentation of some 2FS layouts which use the scale to do what can’t be done effectively in anything larger, and this is surely one of the finest examples. The Derby show was a rich seam of inspiration of such things, although I now wish I’d paid more attention to that ingenuous fiddle yard system which I didn’t realise was associated with York…

[kirmies]

17 hours ago, nick_bastable said:

the Abteilung 502 Urban Industry Dirt powder you  use do you fix it with anything?

 

I do use a fixative - also made by Abteilung 502 and cunningly called 'Pigment Fixer'. This is NOT a varnish but merely fixes the powder to the surface it's on rather than putting a layer over it. This means it does little if anything to change the level of sheen of the paint underneath the powder.

It pretty much MUST be sprayed on as brushing it on will move the powder and potentially wreck your carefully crafted weathering finish. It only needs a very light 'misting' at low pressure - too much and it'll start to run and again wreck the finish. And BE WARNED: when first sprayed on it looks for all the world like it's ruined everything. HOWEVER, once dry, you really can't tell it's there i.e. the look returns to exactly how it was pre-application.

I haven't applied fixative to the YORK roof yet mostly because (fairly obviously) it fixes on what's there meaning you can add more but you can't remove what you've previously applied and I might yet decide I want to. As long as the powder is on a surface that's not going to get alot of handling (and the roof isn't) it'll be fine in the short term.

[CF MRC]

Looking fantastic, Pete. It will take a lot of people!

 

Tim

[bécasse]

On 27/07/2022 at 03:15, CF MRC said:

Looking fantastic, Pete. It will take a lot of people!

 

Tim

The trick is to try to replicate the real thing. Try to find some thirties' photos of the interior of York station, there are bound to be a good few around, and then seek to create similar groupings of people in similar positions along the platform.

 

Saturdays (and Saturday afternoons in particular) tend to be over represented in pre-60s photographs and I would anticipate that they were probably the busiest times of the week then at York, consequently you shouldn't be worried by having a lower passenger density than the photos depict.

[Michael Edge]

I don’t know about the 1930s but I do remember the old days at the York exhibition, when it wasn’t open on Sunday mornings. One of the few things we could find to was to go down to the station - and there weren’t many people about.

[kirmies]

Progress in being made on the external platform boards that will be either end of the overall roof board. These will ONLY be seen by looking through the end screens of the roof. Here's a frst glimpse of what the view will look like:

Not sure yet how the trains will be 'vanished' beyond the end of these boards (each 600m long) but I suspect the 'disappearing into a black hole' effect will be less obvious once the platform awnings are in place.