4EPB Carriage Layout

[Doncaster]

G'day,

I'm well on with building a BR Mk1 style 4EPB set.  At the moment I'm applying the transfers and fitting final details.

I'm struggling to work out which of the carriage sections were "No Smoking" so I can apply appropriate transfers to the windows before I fit them.

I reckon that the driving vehicles were "Smoking" areas.  But I've not been able to work out the trailers.  Bob CWP's Flickr pages don't clear up my problem so I'm hoping that someone here can.

Thank you!

Vernon

[brushman47544]

I think in the mid to late 60s the ratio was one coach non-smoking, three coaches smoking, with the non-smoking coach but one of the trailers.

[Doncaster]

Thanks for that Brushman.  I used to travel in them as a youngster and I think it was more complicated.  I reckon there was a mix in each if the trailers, but I can't remember exactly!!!

[keefer]

Try looking at the EMU Diagram Book available at the Barrowmore MRG website:

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/Prototype.html

In the 'Coaching Stock' section, it's the 2nd one for green-era units.

(May take a while as I think it may list them by individual vehicle type, rather than by unit class)

[4630]

15 hours ago, Doncaster said:

 

I reckon that the driving vehicles were "Smoking" areas.  But I've not been able to work out the trailers. 

 

 

 

The photo that you've posted suggests that you're modelling the earlier period of these units working lives, so I'm not sure that the following information will be definitive for your period, but I'll post this in the hope that it at least confirms or supplements what information you already have. 

 

Taken from the BR(SR) Appendix to Carriage Working Notice dated 6th May 1974, the driving vehicles of 4EPB units are shown as 'Smoking', whilst the intermediate vehicles, whether compartment or saloon, are labelled as 'No Smoking'.

 

I hope that helps.

 

 

[Doncaster]

2 hours ago, keefer said:

Try looking at the EMU Diagram Book available at the Barrowmore MRG website:

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/Prototype.html

In the 'Coaching Stock' section, it's the 2nd one for green-era units.

(May take a while as I think it may list them by individual vehicle type, rather than by unit class)

Hi Keefer,

thanks for that - great steer.  I've had a look at the diagram book.  For the cars I'm interested in they show the DMBSOs as "Non Smoking."   However, it's a script addition so I'm thinking that the original smoking designation was amended as the habit became less popular.  I think the book shows typed designation for non-smoking except the 415/2!

I've now found a decent picture of an all green unit  which seems to show the DMBSOs as smoking and most of the trailers as  non-smoking.

Cheers,

Vernon

[Doncaster]

1 hour ago, 4630 said:

 

The photo that you've posted suggests that you're modelling the earlier period of these units working lives, so I'm not sure that the following information will be definitive for your period, but I'll post this in the hope that it at least confirms or supplements what information you already have. 

 

Taken from the BR(SR) Appendix to Carriage Working Notice dated 6th May 1974, the driving vehicles of 4EPB units are shown as 'Smoking', whilst the intermediate vehicles, whether compartment or saloon, are labelled as 'No Smoking'.

 

I hope that helps.

 

 

Hi 4630,

Thanks for that.  I think I'm closing in  on that as the answer.  Rule 1 will apply!

Cheers,

Vernon

[brushman47544]

14 hours ago, Doncaster said:

Thanks for that Brushman.  I used to travel in them as a youngster and I think it was more complicated.  I reckon there was a mix in each if the trailers, but I can't remember exactly!!!

It does all depend on when you are modelling. For EPBs generally, the locations changed to help avoid delays on platforms. When the ratio was 3-1 in favour of smoking, one of the centre cars was non smoking so people waiting had a maximum of one coach length to walk/run. 2+2, the trailers were non-smoking as that meant only one coach to label up per unit. Once the ratio changed to 3-1 in favour of non-smoking, one centre coach was smoking. 

 

You may be correct about the BR Mk1 based 4-EPBs where they had two open compartments per coach. The two centre coaches may have been 50-50 smoking/non-smoking in both. I mainly travelled in 4-SUBs and SR design 4-EPBs.

 

As non-gangwayed units, the objective was to avoid commuters in particular jostling up and down platforms to find the coach they wanted. Dwell times were important in the peaks.

Edited January 11, 2021 by brushman47544

[Doncaster]

2 hours ago, brushman47544 said:

It does all depend on when you are modelling. For EPBs generally, the locations changed to help avoid delays on platforms. When the ratio was 3-1 in favour of smoking, one of the centre cars was non smoking so people waiting had a maximum of one coach length to walk/run. 2+2, the trailers were non-smoking as that meant only one coach to label up per unit. Once the ratio changed to 3-1 in favour of non-smoking, one centre coach was smoking. 

 

You may be correct about the BR Mk1 based 4-EPBs where they had two open compartments per coach. The two centre coaches may have been 50-50 smoking/non-smoking in both. I mainly travelled in 4-SUBs and SR design 4-EPBs.

 

As non-gangwayed units, the objective was to avoid commuters in particular jostling up and down platforms to find the coach they wanted. Dwell times were important in the peaks.

Hi Brushman,

Thanks for that.  I reckon I've closed in on the answer with each contribution.  I now have a vague recollection of the single no smoking trailer vehicle in the mid to late 1960s.  That means only one car to do!

Thanks again.

Cheers,

Vernon

[bbishop]

Wow, picked up this thread in "read only" mode at work.  I'm better informed with the Bulleid EPBs.  Originally with these the compartment coach was non-smoking and the three open coaches were smoking.  Then the centre open became non-smoking and three compartments of the compartment coach (outside end) became smoking.  When did they become totally non-smoking or 3-1?  I'm fairly sure I was in the last coach of the train bombed by the IRA outside Cannon Street about 1976 and I only travelled non-smoker.

 

How does this relate to the BR EPBs?  I reckon they began with just the compartments of the semi-open trailers being non-smoking, then possibly the two centre coaches, then the whole set. 

 

Andrew makes the valid point that they would want the facilities on the Bulleid and BR stock to be similar, to assist the punter who was fairly savvy about the stock.  Bill

 

Ps:- just looked it up on Wikipedia.  4 March 1976.  I was in or next to the compartment blown up.  My then girlfriend was in the train damaged in the blast.  I was interviewed at New Scotland Yard.    I missed the London Bridge toilet bomb on 28 February 1992 by two minutes.

Edited January 11, 2021 by bbishop
historical accuracy

[Doncaster]

8 hours ago, brushman47544 said:

It does all depend on when you are modelling. For EPBs generally, the locations changed to help avoid delays on platforms. When the ratio was 3-1 in favour of smoking, one of the centre cars was non smoking so people waiting had a maximum of one coach length to walk/run. 2+2, the trailers were non-smoking as that meant only one coach to label up per unit. Once the ratio changed to 3-1 in favour of non-smoking, one centre coach was smoking. 

 

You may be correct about the BR Mk1 based 4-EPBs where they had two open compartments per coach. The two centre coaches may have been 50-50 smoking/non-smoking in both. I mainly travelled in 4-SUBs and SR design 4-EPBs.

 

As non-gangwayed units, the objective was to avoid commuters in particular jostling up and down platforms to find the coach they wanted. Dwell times were important in the peaks.

Hi Brushman,

Thanks for that.  I reckon I've closed in on the answer with each contribution.  I now have a vague recollection of the single no smoking trailer vehicle in the mid to late 1960s.  That means only one car to do!

Thanks again.

Cheers,

Vernon

[Doncaster]

2 hours ago, bbishop said:

Wow, picked up this thread in "read only" mode at work.  I'm better informed with the Bulleid EPBs.  Originally with these the compartment coach was non-smoking and the three open coaches were smoking.  Then the centre open became non-smoking and three compartments of the compartment coach (outside end) became smoking.  When did they become totally non-smoking or 3-1?  I'm fairly sure I was in the last coach of the train bombed by the IRA outside Cannon Street about 1976 and I only travelled non-smoker.

 

How does this relate to the BR EPBs?  I reckon they began with just the compartments of the semi-open trailers being non-smoking, then possibly the two centre coaches, then the whole set. 

 

Andrew makes the valid point that they would want the facilities on the Bulleid and BR stock to be similar, to assist the punter who was fairly savvy about the stock.  Bill

 

Ps:- just looked it up on Wikipedia.  4 March 1976.  I was or next to the compartment blown up.  My then girlfriend was in the train damaged in the blast.  I was interviewed at New Scotland Yard.    I missed the London Bridge toilet bomb on 28 February 1992 by two minutes.

Hi Bishop,

Thanks for your comments.  I'm a bit torn because I've got a photo of a unit in all green where I can see the no smoking signs extending beyond the semi open part into the compartments.  But I can't make out the final few compartments.

Happily my travel on the EPBs was a deal less scary than yours.

Mind you, my Dad had to walk home to Blackfen from New Cross after the St Johns disaster, while my Grandad was on the train that was pulled up short of the fallen bridge.  Then he had to walk home to Blackfen. 

Cheers,

Vernon

[bbishop]

I would be more confident that in the 1960s all the compartments in the semi-open trailers would be non-smoking.  Then over time the non-smoking area would extend into the open parts of the trailers.

 

My father was still in London on the evening of the Lewisham crash so walked to Holborn Viaduct and caught a train to St Mary Cray.  He told a story of a colleague about to walk to the front of the Ramsgate train, seeing a man he disliked, and getting into a rear carriage.  Apparently the other man got into the first carriage and was crushed by the falling viaduct.  Bill

[Wickham Green too]

My dad would normally have been on the Hayes train involved at Lewisham - but as everything was running late he'd caught the previous one and knew nothing of the crash 'til he heard of it on the wireless .............. a gentleman two doors down the road from us wasn't so lucky and had been on that train - he suffered from what we'd now call Post Traumatic Stress Disorder for the rest of his life.

 

Back to smokers ..... like bbishop, I only ever travelled non-smoker and I well remember the morning after smoking was banned on all trains  -  the smokers had a free-for-all and invaded 'our' pristine environment with the last lungfuls of nicotine they'd inhaled on the platform - UGH !