backwaterscotland Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 Poor running Black Beetle - fixable? by backwaterscotland original page on Old RMweb __________________________________________ ??? posted on Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:31 pm Hi Folks, I have a black beetle motor bogie that is used to power a DC kits multiple unit. At low speeds in both directions it judders badly (as though the gearing was slipping), this clears at higher speeds in one direction but not the other. I opened the beetle up and had a look and it appears that the gears on the axles are worn. Any idea what causes this and is it fixable or do I need to replace the bogie? The motor runs fine - it seems to just be the gearing at fault. Thanks for any advice given, Andy __________________________________________ Comment posted by jim s-w on Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:56 pm Hi Andy was the power car heavy? Black beetles dont seem to like a lot of weight on them. I wonder if Hollywood foundry can supply new gears for you? Cheers Jim __________________________________________ ??? posted on Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:09 pm jim s-w wrote: Hi Andy was the power car heavy? Black beetles dont seem to like a lot of weight on them. I wonder if Hollywood foundry can supply new gears for you? Cheers Jim Hi Jim, The simple answer is that I don't know. The beetle came with a part-built (almost completed) kit - there was a fairly substantial weight in the box but I don't know if it had been put into the unit or not. I have another identical beetle under a part built 101 and it shows some of the same juddery running but nowhere near as bad as this one. Andy __________________________________________ Comment posted by jim s-w on Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:32 pm Hi andy Are you running on DC or DCC? Black beetles really dont like feedback on DCC. Cheers Jim __________________________________________ ??? posted on Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:05 pm jim s-w wrote: Hi andy Are you running on DC or DCC? Black beetles really dont like feedback on DCC. Cheers Jim Hi Jim, It was dcc fitted with the feedback switched off and had the same problem. I then removed the decoder and ran the beetle with a Hornby DC controller and had the same problem. Could be the Hornby controller doesn't suit either? There is certainly a big difference between the two beetles - the problem one runs much worse. Thanks Andy __________________________________________ Comment posted by hollywoodfoundry on Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:35 pm The Black Beetle runs just fine under DCC control with feedback. It contains a Mashima motor, and there is no issue with these. However there is a small capacitor across the motor, and you may find it works better if you remove it. It is necessary to remove one end of the housing to gain access to the capacitor. The other issue regarding weight is not quite true either, the maker places a conservative 100 gram limit on each Beetle, but they can cope with twice that weight without any damage to the drive. The gears should not have worn, as the worm is steel and the gear is brass, but of course you do not know what the previous owner did with the Beetle. Although the worm on the Beetle is the same as I use on my BullAnts, the worm gear is wider. Neither are easily removeable, and I would not suggest you try to remove them. You might contact the maker: sem@waterfront.net.au He will be best able to advise you on curing the problem. __________________________________________ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
backwaterscotland Posted October 27, 2009 Author Share Posted October 27, 2009 OK - now I've fixed the copy from the old site! I stripped the black beetle down this afternoon and have found the the jerkly running is caused by the motor rather than the gearing. With only the motor connected to the power supply (a basic Hornby train set controller - I've tried 2 with the same result) and no load the motor still judders when power is applied. Any suggestions as to the reason for this? - Power supply, duff motor? The motor is a mashima but no other markings on it. Any ideas or suggestions welcomed! Many Thanks Andy B) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 96701 Posted October 27, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 27, 2009 OK - now I've fixed the copy from the old site! I stripped the black beetle down this afternoon and have found the the jerkly running is caused by the motor rather than the gearing. With only the motor connected to the power supply (a basic Hornby train set controller - I've tried 2 with the same result) and no load the motor still judders when power is applied. Any suggestions as to the reason for this? - Power supply, duff motor? The motor is a mashima but no other markings on it. Any ideas or suggestions welcomed! Many Thanks Andy B) Have you tried the maker as Hollyfoundry suggested earlier this month? You might contact the maker: sem@waterfront.net.au He will be best able to advise you on curing the problem Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
backwaterscotland Posted October 27, 2009 Author Share Posted October 27, 2009 Have you tried the maker as Hollyfoundry suggested earlier this month? You might contact the maker: sem@waterfront.net.au He will be best able to advise you on curing the problem I have emailed Steam Era but have not yet had a reply. Thanks Andy B) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollywoodfoundry Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 I have emailed Steam Era but have not yet had a reply. Thanks Andy I'll give him a prod via the old telephonic communicator. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Trainshed Terry Posted October 27, 2009 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 27, 2009 OK - now I've fixed the copy from the old site! I stripped the black beetle down this afternoon and have found the the jerkly running is caused by the motor rather than the gearing. With only the motor connected to the power supply (a basic Hornby train set controller - I've tried 2 with the same result) and no load the motor still judders when power is applied. Any suggestions as to the reason for this? - Power supply, duff motor? The motor is a mashima but no other markings on it. Any ideas or suggestions welcomed! Many Thanks Andy B) Trying to remember if they are a five pole motor, but it sounds like there could have been a duff batch come through with a defective pole on the motor. Trying to help. Terry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollywoodfoundry Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Trying to remember if they are a five pole motor, but it sounds like there could have been a duff batch come through with a defective pole on the motor. Trying to help. Terry I spoke to David of SEM this morning, and he is probably going to offer to replace the motor for a nominal fee, on the basis that Andy sends the old one back. It is possible it is a crook motor, I do get a few faulty Mashimas myself from time to time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
backwaterscotland Posted October 28, 2009 Author Share Posted October 28, 2009 Hi Folks, Some more progress with this today. I had a reply back from David at SEM and he has offered to replace the motor for a nominal fee. However, this afternoon I tried fitting an old Lenz LE1000 decoder to the beetle and it has tamed the judder on the motor - on my rolling road (with power applied directly to the pickups) it starts running from almost nothing with almost no judder. Not sure why this is - I am assuming that both the Bachmann decoder and the Hornby controller are supplying a voltage/signal that doesn't suit the beetle. I need to clean the wheels & pickups to see if I can get smooth running on the track now (It does stop and start occasionally on the track and I have put that down to dirty wheels/pickups) So I have a quandry - do I send the motor back to Australia and get a replacement or do I run it with the LE1000? Thoughts? Thanks Andy B) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollywoodfoundry Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Curiouser and curiouser. I was under the impression from what you said earlier that the motor had a 'judder' when powered from a DC supply. If so, then the motor may very well be faulty. As a check, try running the motor from a battery of some sort to see if it still 'judders'. If so, then there is a problem with the motor. In any event , before you re-assemble the Beetle, remove the capacitor across the motor connections, it will run much better under DCC control without the capacitor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
backwaterscotland Posted October 29, 2009 Author Share Posted October 29, 2009 Curiouser and curiouser. I was under the impression from what you said earlier that the motor had a 'judder' when powered from a DC supply. If so, then the motor may very well be faulty. As a check, try running the motor from a battery of some sort to see if it still 'judders'. If so, then there is a problem with the motor. In any event , before you re-assemble the Beetle, remove the capacitor across the motor connections, it will run much better under DCC control without the capacitor. You may see why I am confused now! So far I've tested with the following systems : Roco DCC controller, Bachmann 3-function decoder - juddery running (though improved by switching emf off) Hornby DC controller - juddery running Roco DCC Controller, Lenz LE1000 Decoder - Much smoother from low voltage, still very slight judder 9v Battery - juddery running The capacitor has already been removed from the beetle with no noticable difference. I have a second almost identical black beetle here (not quite identical as they have different mounting methods - the first is attached with a screw while the second has a bolt fitted and is attached with a nut.) I believe the second beetle has the capacitor still fitted. I've tested the second beetle with the same setups and chips as the first : Hornby DC Controller - juddery running 9v Battery - juddery running Roco DCC controller, Lenz LE1000 decoder - fairly juddery running Now even more confused than I was before! One thing to note is that the controllers are the same ones I use for all of my stock. I have tested both controllers to check them and they are fine. I tested DCC with : Bachmann Class 25 with Bachmann 3-function decoder Underground Ernie based shunter with Bachmann 2-function decoder Both ran fine (which, considering the shunter chassis cost a whole ??5.00 is a surprise really). It does seem to be just the beetles that are a problem. The majority of my stock is RTR so there isn't anything else to compare. Thoughts, ideas and inspiration welcome - I'm kind Andy B) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 I have one beetle which runs fine on DC. I would suggest the motor(s) is faulty and send it back. Mine has a Mashima fitted perhaps Hollywood Foundry can confirm if they are always fitted to the Beetle units. There is someone selling Mashimas on ebay at quite a good price ( no connection) Mick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollywoodfoundry Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 I have one beetle which runs fine on DC. I would suggest the motor(s) is faulty and send it back. Mine has a Mashima fitted perhaps Hollywood Foundry can confirm if they are always fitted to the Beetle units. There is someone selling Mashimas on ebay at quite a good price ( no connection) Mick Yes, they are always Mashima motors, either a 1220 or a 1224 depending upon the length of the Beetle (wheelbase). Not a good idea to just buy a Mashima and try to replace it as it has to be fitted with the worms in the exact place, and they are a tight force fit onto the shaft. Andy, the newer BB is the one with the screw mount on the top, the one with the projecting stud is a very much older one, and is unlikely to have a capacitor fitted to it, as David was not fitting capacitors when that unit was made. He is now looking to stop fitting capacitors to any newly manufactured Beetles because of the increasing use of DCC and the problem the capacitor causes. Interesting, under the UK laws, he is not compelled to fit them anyway, only if the item is classified as a toy. I would strongly suggest you return one of the motors to David so he can evaluate the problem. I also wonder if the 'judder' you see is actually cogging of the motor. Geoff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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