Proper Placement of Signals, AWS Ramps and Junction Boxes?

[Ray Von]

8 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Regarding the track layout I notice that you haven't got trap points in any of the sidings to protect passenger trains in and out of platform 3. These are a requirement for sidings connected to passenger lines.

Cheers,  I don't think I can do much about that now at this stage.  Thank you though.

[TheSignalEngineer]

4 minutes ago, St. Simon said:

You could argue that the double slip (with suitable restoration controls) can act as the trap point.

Simon

No. With a route set in or out of platform 3 a train running past a signal in the sidings will foul it, besides running through the trailing end.

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

6 minutes ago, Ray Von said:

Cheers,  I don't think I can do much about that now at this stage.  Thank you though.

Just make some cosmetic switch rails and glue them in the position for leaving the siding. No-one will notice they are lying the wrong way.

[St. Simon]

6 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

No. With a route set in or out of platform 3 a train running past a signal in the sidings will foul it, besides running through the trailing end.

 

Yes, you’re right actually, only realised it just after posting!

 

Simon

[Ray Von]

5 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Just make some cosmetic switch rails and glue them in the position for leaving the siding. No-one will notice they are lying the wrong way.

Could you elaborate? I'd like to correct the issue if possible and I do have some rail offcuts... Cheers. 

[TheSignalEngineer]

3 minutes ago, St. Simon said:

Yes, you’re right actually, only realised it just after posting!

 

Simon

Got a signalman off a Please Explain when he managed to halt the West Coast Postal between Proof House and New Street. Tried to put it into 9 with a route set out of 8 through the double slip at the end of the island platform. Interlocking says NO.

[TheSignalEngineer]

8 minutes ago, Ray Von said:

Could you elaborate? I'd like to correct the issue if possible and I do have some rail offcuts... Cheers. 

There's one in Tony Wright's thread. See this post, several pictures.

 

[Ray Von]

6 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

There's one in Tony Wright's thread. See this post, several pictures.

 

Wandering off topic slightly, but these are the offending points - I'm guessing adding a set of rails to each, at the point work angled "down" (in relation to the picture) is what you're suggesting?  Does the Third Rail complicate things...? 

[phil-b259]

41 minutes ago, Ray Von said:

Wandering off topic slightly, but these are the offending points - I'm guessing adding a set of rails to each, at the point work angled "down" (in relation to the picture) is what you're suggesting?  Does the Third Rail complicate things...? 

 

You might want to rethink your 3rd rail arrangements. The section in the middle of the photo is going to remove all the shoe gear of trains coming from the middle line on the left.

 

Have a look at this http://www.clag.org.uk/3rd-4th.html#Termination-of-conductor-rails-at-point-and-crossing-work and http://www.clag.org.uk/3rd-4th.html#third-rail-side-ramps

Edited February 1, 2021 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

56 minutes ago, Ray Von said:

Could you elaborate? I'd like to correct the issue if possible and I do have some rail offcuts... Cheers. 

 

Make one of these https://peco-uk.com/products/catch-turnout-right-hand3 from rail offcuts, plasticard, etc

 

i.e. make something like these.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by phil-b259

[RailWest]

1 hour ago, St. Simon said:

You could argue that the double slip (with suitable restoration controls) can act as the trap point.

Simon

But surely, if anything coming out of the sidings got close enough to the double-slip, it would be foul of the platform 3 line anyway?

[TheSignalEngineer]

Trap positions and throw off directions shown. exact positions need to be determined by how the track is on the layout. A train dropping off the end of the trap should stop clear of the passenger move.

There would also be a need to have some means of stopping the scrappie from pushing a wagon out foul of the sidings. In the past I have used a wheel stop padlocked across one rail so a wagon would stop clear of the other sidings if moved. 

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

You might want to rethink your 3rd rail arrangements. The section in the middle of the photo is going to remove all the shoe gear of trains coming from the middle line on the left.

There will be a very big flash and bang as the shoe comes off and hits the con rail and running rail at the same time. All trains will stop and the signal lamps will probably all go out.

[Ray Von]

19 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

There will be a very big flash and bang as the shoe comes off and hits the con rail and running rail at the same time. All trains will stop and the signal lamps will probably all go out.

Here's the arrangement I have right now, do I lose the troublesome rail entirely or move it? 

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, Ray Von said:

Here's the arrangement I have right now, do I lose the troublesome rail entirely or move it? 

Have a read of those links I sent you! They give a number of options involving side ramps or short lengths of conductor rail for your points.

 

As a general principle though, the shorter the units used the more conductor rail you need to prevent a unit becoming 'gapped'*

 

As is always the way with railways there is no 'set design' for electrification (or signalling) - only a vast array of options which the scheme designer may utilise to deliver the train service the operating department specify. Far too many modellers forget that its not an exercise in filling the railway with expensive equipment or satisfying the designers ego when installing such equipment.

 

 

* At London Victoria there was a standing instruction that the 456s used for south London line services must NOT depart unless they got a green - the cautionary single yellow proceed aspect meaning it would usually get 'gapped' on the pointwork at the throat due to low speeds.

Edited February 1, 2021 by phil-b259

[TheSignalEngineer]

Difficult to tell without seeing in the flesh but the idea is that a shoe meets the conductor rail via a ramp. If it hits the side you are sunk or fried.

The other main criteria is that a train should have at least one shoe on the con rail so you can have a gap but it should be shorter than the space between the outer shoes on the shortest unit. There are places where a train gets gapped but it is usually where it can get enough momentum to roll across.

 

Note:- Beaten to it by Phil whilst typing.

[Ray Von]

Thanks guys, really informative stuff. Getting back on topic, can I buy the signals that I need readily? Or is it something to be kitbashed? 

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

If I'm understanding correctly, then, unless we've all got large-ish layouts, we don't need AWS ramps on show as they would be some 8 feet before the signal, maybe only seen for a signal not modelled further along the layout?

 

Mike.

[St. Simon]

13 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

If I'm understanding correctly, then, unless we've all got large-ish layouts, we don't need AWS ramps on show as they would be some 8 feet before the signal, maybe only seen for a signal not modelled further along the layout?

 

Mike.

 

Hi Mike,

 

Yes, you could argue that if you were producing everything to exact scale distances, but the reality is that everything is compressed longitudinally on a model railway. After all, if you applied the same logic to signal spacing, a huge amount of  layouts under 20ft should really only have a single signal!

 

As I commented on in my book, longer distances in signalling terms should be compressed to give an aesthetically pleasing result, a rule of thump I use is 4 - 5 coach lengths between signal AWS Magnet. I get frustrated when people put them within a loco length of the signal, but equally a full 8 feet looks a little silly!

 

Simon

[The Stationmaster]

Lots of information here, including photos of pointwork, about 3rd rail arrangements.

 

http://www.clag.org.uk/3rd-4th.html

[Ray Von]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Lots of information here, including photos of pointwork, about 3rd rail arrangements

Cheers I think I see the problem, I need to shorten the curved section of third rail.

[Michael Hodgson]

18 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

There will be a very big flash and bang as the shoe comes off and hits the con rail and running rail at the same time. All trains will stop and the signal lamps will probably all go out.

 

So add a sound chip and an LED circuit to model that.

[phil-b259]

39 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

So add a sound chip and an LED circuit to model that.

 

Modelling the S&T talking 4 hours to refit the points you have blown up all the insulations in (there to make track circuits work) isn't so easy however....

[TheSignalEngineer]

 

22 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

There will be a very big flash and bang as the shoe comes off and hits the con rail and running rail at the same time. All trains will stop and the signal lamps will probably all go out.

 

3 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

So add a sound chip and an LED circuit to model that.

 

If you are using the third rail for pick-up it may fry your chips as well.