Operation of EMUs in Preservation

[Zomboid]

Why not go the whole hog and do a cathedral sub with rotary converters, from the pre-remote control era, when all the substations were manned...

 

Obviously a Brighton raft is more appropriate for HK. Were they originally mercury arcs? None of those left, thankfully.

[Zomboid]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Fund? It would need a lot.

 

Help build? I’d love to have a go. What I don’t know is whether any original kit now exists at all. It would be marvellous to be able to demonstrate ASEA supervisory kit, for instance, but I doubt any exists ..... or was Woking CR mothballed with it intact?

Is it that different from the electromechanical stuff that's still in service at the other old ECRs? Would it make much difference?

 

Electrical control through the ages, now that would be considered a niche subject even amongst electrification geeks...

[Nearholmer]

Interesting isn't it?

 

Electric rolling stock is under-represented in preservation, and SFAIU traction power supply infrastructure is more or less completely unrepresented in preservation (The Manx Electric gets close, in that some of their gear is pretty ancient).

 

I think the issue is that railway electrification is a "history of technology" subject, as a sub-branch of the history of electricity, which is itself under-represented in museums etc given its importance, whereas steam railway technology is a "nostalgia" subject, which is seriously over-represented as a result. 

 

Its all a bit like C18th houses, where huge country piles have been conserved in great disproportion to even town-houses, and artisan homes have, until very recently, been cheerfully demolished as slums.

[Nearholmer]

25 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Is it that different from the electromechanical stuff that's still in service at the other old ECRs? Would it make much difference?

 

Paddock Wood, Canterbury, and Eastleigh areas? They have 1950/60s post-office uniselector type supervisory, I think.

 

The ASEA system was hugely different from that. Think Flinstone's electro-mechanical. The equivalent to a single uniselector was about 18" diameter, in a black cabinet with a glass front about the size of a wardrobe. With a swastika logo on it (ASEA abandoned that logo in 1933, for obvious reasons, but the Brighton Line kit carried it prominently displayed).

 

Would it make much difference? To a presentation of an historical Southern Railway substation, very much so. Getting it wrong would be like fitting a 1930s 'Odeon' signal-cabin with a c1960 n-x panel plus associated relays, and claiming authenticity.

 

But, as you say, rather niche; not stuff people would queue round the block to see. Mind you, we have a large gallery in our local museum devoted to the history of telegraphy and telephony, chock-full of ancient exchange equipment, and people (especially kids) seem to really enjoy that.

 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Johann Marsbar]

2 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

So do American trams/trolleys not have a different wheel profile from trains, like they do in Europe?

 

 

No - That's one reason that you ended up with tramways being forced to adopt a wider gauge to stop standard gauge freight cars using the same tracks - i.e. in Baltimore and also the "Pennsylvania Gauge" operations.

A lot of places don't even use grooved "tramway" rail eg Route 15 in Philadelphia as shown below....

 

 

 

[Zomboid]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Paddock Wood, Canterbury, and Eastleigh areas? They have 1950/60s post-office uniselector type supervisory, I think.

I suppose that fits in with the "everything in BR 1960s" attitude that most heritage railways have at the moment, at least.

 

Paddock Wood is an early electronic system though, I believe.

[Nearholmer]

2 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Paddock Wood is an early electronic system though, I believe.

 Could be - I've been away from southern supervisory/SCADA for decades, and am only just getting involved again now in a very minor way. Several areas have been re-equipped since I last saw them.

 

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by Nearholmer

[phil-b259]

5 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

 

When we bemoan the loss of certain units / vehicles either to static non-rail use, to the scrap-man or to the ravages of rust and rot we must also think whether we are losing the last of a type.  To so so - using the 4-DD coaches as an example - would be a grievous loss to our heritage but when there are - to use another example - still numerous EPB / HAP / CIG / BIG / VEP coaches in existence then we are not yet at that point in terms of representing their era.  

 

 

 

The problem is unless you are exceptionally wealthy, to preserve something requires the general public to desire to come and see it.

 

Thats why big stately homes are well represented as visitor attractions but smaller or significant ex industrial buildings like Mills have been neglected, left to fall, to rack and ruin rather than be preserved.

 

In railway preservation its a fact of life steam locos take top billing - everything else tends to attract less interest for the ordinary public as you move down the categories.

 

Thats a shame - but its the realities of how things work. The 4 SUB is fortunate it has found a home under cover in Margate, as has the LMS unit - but don't kid yourselves that is largely a side effect of a rich man wanting somewhere to store his out of ticket items and a model company with a lot of surplus space on its hands needing some income from it. If that particular set of circumstances hadn't happened it would most likley still be rotting away in the open air some place.

 

So take for instance the 4 COR unit - what is more preferable, have it sit around slowly disintegrating for lack of funds or have it restored as hauled stock? The latter at least gives the scope for a return to an EMU at a later date where as the former may well be more 'authentic' for a while but when it has to be carted away as piles of rotten wood and metal its gone for good.

 

Sometimes you just have to byte the bullet and accept preservation 'as was' is not a viable option if you want things to survive.

 

The remains of a 4DD coach for example would be far better restored as a static exhibit - its a shame the NRM (or whatever they call themselves) can't find space because its novelty factor would be a draw over other rolling stock.

[rodent279]

2 hours ago, Zomboid said:

Why not go the whole hog and do a cathedral sub with rotary converters, from the pre-remote control era, when all the substations were manned...

 

Obviously a Brighton raft is more appropriate for HK. Were they originally mercury arcs? None of those left, thankfully.

Mercury arc rectifiers are fascinating to watch, though I'm glad I've never been near one that's exploded. Must surely have been an environmental hazard when that class 81 hit that transformer doing 75+ at Hixon.

 

 

[009 micro modeller]

7 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

To so so - using the 4-DD coaches as an example - would be a grievous loss to our heritage but when there are - to use another example - still numerous EPB / HAP / CIG / BIG / VEP coaches in existence then we are not yet at that point in terms of representing their era.  

 

I sometimes wonder why the projects to restore 4-DD vehicles haven't been more successful - their unusual double-deck nature could make them very interesting, even to the general public, either as a static exhibit or as hauled stock, even if they could not run under their own power in preservation. Then again, they are experimental and not well-known.

 

Similarly, would there be any appetite from enthusiasts or casual visitors to restore the low-voltage OHLE industrial electric locos and create a line for them to run on? I get the impression it would be too niche but I'd love to be proved wrong.

Edited February 4, 2021 by 009 micro modeller

[Northmoor]

4 hours ago, Zomboid said:

Is it that different from the electromechanical stuff that's still in service at the other old ECRs? Would it make much difference?

 

Electrical control through the ages, now that would be considered a niche subject even amongst electrification geeks...

I can't find my images of Woking Control Room at the moment, but I can assure you looks like they just closed the doors and walked away when the newer facility was built to replace it.  It is opened every couple of years for the national Heritage Open Days.

 

A director of the Electric Railway Centre has outlined their experiences above.  As someone has been involved with the AC Locomotive Group since its inception (less so now), I can make a few points about my own experience and why I am almost as certain as certain can be, that there will not be a new preserved electric railway in the UK.  Hopefully I can also clarify a few points made above as well.

 

When we were resurrecting the Old Ladies (81-85), all sorts of individuals approached us keen that a specific Class should be our focus, basically because they wanted to "get mileage" behind one.  This suggests that once they'd done their trip, they would move onto something else.  The problem is if you are going to restore an inoperable electric loco at £100k plus, based a typical preserved line fare, you need to sell 10,000 tickets to pay for it; then you need to pay for the infrastructure, which is probably an order of magnitude more costly.  Experience suggests that you could fill one train, the next would be quarter full and it would tail off after that as the novelty factor would wear off quickly.  However, speaking to railways operating diesel galas also told us a lot of enthusiasts will travel a great distance for an event like that, then stand on an overbridge to take photos rather than pay to travel. 

It is actually easier to restore electric stock for main line operation, which is why we did that (everyone learns to walk before running).  The infrastructure already exists for you, there are often people with the knowledge to operate and maintain the locos (such as with 86s) still in the industry.  Compare that with operating steam, where to operate on the main line, you have to bring the coal and water infrastructure with you.  The approvals for the locomotive are just part of the equation; consider that very few steam locos can operate air-braked stock and air brakes are the industry standard.  Operating the vacuum brake is no longer normal practice for national rail staff.

 

The Old Ladies will never go back on the main line because any Grandfather rights have long expired; they would need to be substantially rebuilt to acceptable modern standards with, e.g. Gp Std headlights, TPWS & GSM-R etc in the cab, duplicated circuitry for reliability and new fire alarm systems (how many were lost to fire during their lives?) so they wouldn't be representative preserved locos any more.  Each is a unique survivor of their class and we'd like to keep them that way.  Someone above wrote that the 81 was restored to life; it wasn't for several reasons, one being that it uses some obscure voltage for auxiliaries.  The 82 uses 240V AC and the 83, 415V 3-phase so both could be plugged into the wall at Barrow Hill, although their meter went round quite quickly (and on one embarrassing occasion, we tripped the local sub-station).

 

Of course if you have a large personal fortune and would like to turn it into a small one, build yourself a modern traction preserved railway!

[009 micro modeller]

55 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

why I am almost as certain as certain can be, that there will not be a new preserved electric railway in the UK.

 

But would it, in theory, be possible/permissible to build a relatively low-voltage (around 200-600V), overhead DC line, similar to those previously used for electrified industrial railways? I find it unlikely that it will happen due to the obscure nature of the stock involved (they’re electric AND industrial so probably only of interest to a small group of people) but the electrification systems for these are often virtually identical to those used on existing heritage tramways, sometimes with an even lower voltage and perhaps with fewer opportunities for passengers to get too close to the live wires.

 

On the other hand, the ORR tramway guidance explicitly states that ‘this chapter is not intended to apply directly to the GB heritage tramway systems, though in regulating these systems we would draw on the principles in this chapter in a proportionate manner,’ while the equivalent heritage railway document directs heritage tramway operators to this one, placing preserved trams in a slight grey area anyway: https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/om/tramways-health-and-safety-risks-strategy.pdf

 

The point about existing infrastructure is a good one and is also relevant for the US subway trains mentioned earlier. I don’t think they would have ever considered modifying ex-subway stock for overhead line operation purely to get round the safety issues of live rails and then building a line specifically for it to run on; the trolley museum lines already exist to preserve trams and interurbans and the subway stock is just a nice addition to the line, also allowing it to run under its own power at the expense of a small modification. Perhaps if there was more compatibility between heavy rail track and that used by British trams one of the tram museums over here would have tried something similar, but as UK tram and rail track/wheel standards are very different they aren’t really able to.

 

Interestingly, Wikipedia suggests that an attempt was made to preserve Hellingly Hospital Railway (500V DC overhead line): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellingly_Hospital_Railway

 

This is the Conwy Valley museum narrow gauge line, which I think uses 110V: http://www.britishtramsonline.co.uk/news/?p=4158

 

Edit: this thread may also be interesting, although I understand it wasn’t felt to be particularly safe even at the time: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/mrw_forums/maldon-miniature-railway-t4288.html

Edited February 4, 2021 by 009 micro modeller

[DY444]

15 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

 

 Getting it wrong would be like fitting a 1930s 'Odeon' signal-cabin with a c1960 n-x panel plus associated relays, and claiming authenticity.

 

<Pedant Mode>

It wouldn't be entirely inauthentic (although I know what you mean).  Woking box was equipped with 2 small NX panels in the mid-60s when its control area was extended to Brookwood and Pirbright Jn as part of the Bournemouth electrification.

</Pedant Mode>

[stewartingram]

A little off topic, but what about Blackpool Tramway?

The present system is really a total rebuild of the older Blackpool, and Fleetwood, systems that existed until some 5 (?) years ago or so. Since then it has re-opened as a modern system with Flexity trams, though a lot of the rebuilding was done before the final upgrade was done. Unusually, there is a shed load (literally!) of preserved cars which are gradually being put back into service on tours, being based at the old Rigby Road depot. They still work, on the new modern track and OH system. Interestingly, I believe that volunteers operate the cars, which is unusual as well. They also bring in preserved cars from elsewhere on occasions. Indeed they even hired a very old works car to use over the new system before it opened!

Now, the interesting bit. Whilst still operating, the "old" system (which was a legally "standalone" system semi-divorced from the previous Council set up, (due to the way the Government set up bus privatisation many years ago), has held a number of "open days" at Rigby Road. One of these that I attended (I believe the 75th anniversary of the streamlined trams) included guided tours of the depot. The then recently de-commissioned mercury arc rectifiers were on display, they may indeed still be there. All in all, an interesting system with a massive history, a grand survivor which has been modernised, but has now become a "preserved line" as well.

 

Stewart

[009 micro modeller]

53 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

A little off topic, but what about Blackpool Tramway?

The present system is really a total rebuild of the older Blackpool, and Fleetwood, systems that existed until some 5 (?) years ago or so. Since then it has re-opened as a modern system with Flexity trams, though a lot of the rebuilding was done before the final upgrade was done. Unusually, there is a shed load (literally!) of preserved cars which are gradually being put back into service on tours, being based at the old Rigby Road depot. They still work, on the new modern track and OH system. Interestingly, I believe that volunteers operate the cars, which is unusual as well. They also bring in preserved cars from elsewhere on occasions. Indeed they even hired a very old works car to use over the new system before it opened!

Now, the interesting bit. Whilst still operating, the "old" system (which was a legally "standalone" system semi-divorced from the previous Council set up, (due to the way the Government set up bus privatisation many years ago), has held a number of "open days" at Rigby Road. One of these that I attended (I believe the 75th anniversary of the streamlined trams) included guided tours of the depot. The then recently de-commissioned mercury arc rectifiers were on display, they may indeed still be there. All in all, an interesting system with a massive history, a grand survivor which has been modernised, but has now become a "preserved line" as well.

 

Stewart

 

Similarly, didn’t Blackpool have a loco to haul coal wagons along the tram tracks from a mainline rail connection? But they didn’t have to adjust the tram gauge to suit like Glasgow did.

[caradoc]

Unfortunately, as per a report in the February Railway Magazine, Blackpool Transport have instructed the owners of around 10 heritage trams to remove their vehicles by the 31st March so that Rigby Road depot can be 're-purposed'. 

 

[caradoc]

20 hours ago, Zomboid said:

Electrical control through the ages, now that would be considered a niche subject even amongst electrification geeks...

 

Very true. However in 2018 I visited the Deutsches Technik Museum in Berlin which, as well as an excellent collection of trains, has a section devoted to suitcase production.....  So niche subjects can, given the will, be catered for, and if the NRM, sorry RM, is to truly represent railway history some coverage at least of electrification, in all its aspects is essential. Perhaps Locomotion at Shildon, which as well as being on a once (long ago !) electrified line, has IIRC the Class 71 and some EMUs, would be the place for this ? 

 

[009 micro modeller]

20 minutes ago, caradoc said:

Unfortunately, as per a report in the February Railway Magazine, Blackpool Transport have instructed the owners of around 10 heritage trams to remove their vehicles by the 31st March so that Rigby Road depot can be 're-purposed'. 

 

 

Are these separate privately-owned ones though? I was under the impression that some of the heritage fleet was actually owned by the tramway itself.

[Nearholmer]

5 minutes ago, caradoc said:

Perhaps Locomotion at Shildon, which as well as being on a once (long ago !) electrified line, has IIRC the Class 71 and some EMUs, would be the place for this ? 

 

Yes, somewhere in the collection of museums that the Science Museum oversees, there really ought to be a place where the history of electrical power (as opposed to telecommunications) technology is properly described in an engaging way, and a a subset the history of electric traction.

 

The Science Museum itself is now pretty good on telecommunications (a few somewhat under-described exhibits, but otherwise very good), but pretty woeful on electrical power, whereas its fairly good on steam, and OK on internal combustion (a couple of really key exhibits just plonked in the room with no explanation, like forgotten umbrella stands, though). 

 

I've often thought that Brighton or Blackpool, or Cragside, would be good locations, because of the live exhits on the doorstep, but realistically somewhere more central, possibly using a redundant coal-fired generating station, would make more sense for a museum of electrical power.

 

But, its clearly not a subject that plays to either national pride and nostalgia in the way that steam does, or is sexy in the that telecommunications are presently, and its unlikely that the UK will be awash with spare dosh anytime soon, so I think its "dream on".

 

A museum of this history of medicine, and specifically of the NHS, now that would "fly". Its been said that the NHS is now the closest thing we have to a national religion, so it would be logical to provide it with a central "votive site".

[caradoc]

17 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Are these separate privately-owned ones though? I was under the impression that some of the heritage fleet was actually owned by the tramway itself.

 

Yes, these are privately-owned trams, and to be fair to Blackpool Transport they were stored at Rigby Road free of charge. However, the RM article also says that some of these trams will be leaving Rigby Road for the second time, having been among those sold off by Blackpool Transport following modernisation of the system 10 years ago !

 

[Zomboid]

There's lots of interesting science in electricity in general, which ought to make for a good exhibit at a science museum type site.

 

Remote Control systems being part of that, and clearly not exclusive to the railway, but generation and distribution and everything associated with that.

 

Electricity is such a crucial utility for our lives and such a wide ranging subject that it could easily support a national "museum of electricity". Sounds a bit niche, but with decent curating and marketing I don't see why it wouldn't be a hit...

[rodent279]

3 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

Very true. However in 2018 I visited the Deutsches Technik Museum in Berlin which, as well as an excellent collection of trains, has a section devoted to suitcase production.....  So niche subjects can, given the will, be catered for, and if the NRM, sorry RM, is to truly represent railway history some coverage at least of electrification, in all its aspects is essential. Perhaps Locomotion at Shildon, which as well as being on a once (long ago !) electrified line, has IIRC the Class 71 and some EMUs, would be the place for this ? 

 

Straying OT a little, my beef for a long time with the NRM has been that it's very good at doing the big sexy things that draw the great unwashed in, like things that go chuff, Royal trains etc, but nowhere near as good at the everyday things that often go unnoticed. To be fair to the NRM, that's a criticism that can be made of many preserved railways and museums.

There's a lot that could be done to show and explain electric traction without having a moving example. I'd like to see a transformer & tapchanger from an electric loco, sectioned, with the tapchanger able to move. A couple of rectifiers, mercury arc (obviously without mercury) and silicon, again sectioned, to compare the two. A working mercury arc rectifier in a glass bulb would be a good visual exhibit, behind suitable toughened glass screening in case of explosion. A pantograph that can be raised and lowered could be another visual display.

Electro-mechanical loco controls could also be shown, alongside modern solid state controls. A traction motor could be displayed, sectioned, with its gearbox and final drive coupled to an axle, driven by an out of sight electric motor. A Büchli drive, again sectioned and driven, would be a fascinating exhibit. I think I saw something similar in the Swiss railway museum in Lucerne, but that was nearly 40 years ago.

I recognise these things aren't going to get people queuing along the street, I don't think I'd queue along the street to see an exhibition about suitcases, but I don't doubt it would be interesting once I was in there.

Sometimes the really interesting stuff in a museum is not the crowd pulling stuff you see on posters, but the little bits in odd corners.

 

Edit-OHL tensioning systems, neutral sections etc, and why they are needed, might also make an interesting display.

Edited February 5, 2021 by rodent279

[Zomboid]

Turns out there was a museum of electricity in Christchurch (Dorset), run by SSE. Closed in 2012 because it would have cost too much to make it comply with the access requirements for such things.

 

They had a tram too, apparently. But it was probably not on the scale that I was imagining...

 

I've always thought that the turbine hall at the Tate Modern would be much more interesting if it still has turbines in it.

[298]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

Electricity is such a crucial utility for our lives and such a wide ranging subject that it could easily support a national "museum of electricity". Sounds a bit niche, but with decent curating and marketing I don't see why it wouldn't be a hit...

 

There is, one of the better exhibits at Amberley: https://www.amberleymuseum.co.uk/explore/explore-communication/electricity-hall/

 

1 minute ago, rodent279 said:

There's a lot that could be done to show and explain electric traction without having a moving example. I'd like to see a transformer & tapchanger from an electric loco, sectioned, with the tapchanger able to move. A couple of rectifiers, mercury arc (obviously without mercury) and silicon, again sectioned, to compare the two. A working mercury arc rectifier in a glass bulb would be a good visual exhibit, behind suitable toughened glass screening in case of explosion. A pantograph that can be raised and lowered could be another visual display.

 

When the Electric Railway Museum was open in Coventry, one of the class 309 cars had a display of various forms of electric traction. It didn't have to, but proved the efforts of the volunteers to form a credible museum instead of just looking like a site full of stock that nobody else wanted.

[phil-b259]

9 minutes ago, 298 said:

 

There is, one of the better exhibits at Amberley: https://www.amberleymuseum.co.uk/explore/explore-communication/electricity-hall/

 

 

Indeed - and when Covid restrictions I would heartily recommend people go and have a look

 

In fact the Amberley setup is a good guide as to what would work elsewhere when it comes to explaining the history of Electricity to the public as you can get buy in from an audience who are not particularly train centred but curious as to things what sort of electric gadgets their grandparents may have had in the home for example.

 

Somewhere like Blemish or Crich would be a good location for a similar setup - although initially set up as 'Victorian' town environments as time goes on you could start to bring in elements of 1950 / 1960s life into the mix.