Day 2 of DCC - puts on dunces hat

[RobinofLoxley]

I thought today would be an interesting day. I unpacked my secondhand Z21 and router, connected it all up 

 

My Galaxy note found the router and said hello

 

I connected my test/programming track, all of one metre long on my dining room table. Turned on the Z21. Put Conyngham Hall (see yesterday) onto the track, Z21 flashed red. Hmmm. Reset the Z21, cautiously tried the Hall again, this time the Z21 stayed blue. Cautiously optimistic. Started to 'play' on the smartphone, put the Hall into the loco list, tagged its photo. Went back to loco control and cautiously reached for the speed button. Zilch.

 

I am clearly missing something, but right at the start, I dont know what it is. Just logging a loco into the app doesnt guarantee the Z21 knows that loco is there and first time on, after an adventurous afternoon doing the first chip install, Im not sure where the communications faults might be and how to eleiminate them. Working through the manuals as we speak.

 

One thing, I think that when a loco is 'active' if you look at the list the tick alongside should be dotted - but it isnt.

 

Anyone knows their way around the Z21 I would be grateful.

 

Also, my understanding is that I can expect some life from the decoder on its default settings - correct?

 

I think that I may have to put some data in somewhere - for eample, 'Programming track' option asks for CV-address and CV-value fields but carries a message saying 'The loco have to be on the program rail track' - implying it isnt. Where I am so far.

 

[WIMorrison]

Is the Z21 application connected to the Z21? There should be a solid blue light in the top right if you have a connection.

 

 

 

 

[KingEdwardII]

I'm assuming that you've never programmed this decoder before.  In which case it will have the default address value of 3. Have you tried using loco address 3?

 

Mike.

[RobinofLoxley]

the smartphone screen, on 'Control Panel' has a wifi icon with a green tick through it at top right. No blue light I can see anywhere

[RobinofLoxley]

1 minute ago, KingEdwardII said:

I'm assuming that you've never programmed this decoder before.  In which case it will have the default address value of 3. Have you tried using loco address 3?

 

Mike.

No. I put the loco number in which is 6937 which was accepted. You are right this is my first activity of any kind on DCC.

[Pete the Elaner]

I don't know the Z21 so cannot answer any questions about it.

Have patience, I am sure you will find the problem soon.

 

What you may or may not know:

When new & reset, decoders have a 'short' address of 3. Most of us use long addresses because you can have more & they can be more meaningful.

The program track is used for reading back CVs. (including the loco's address) You can program them on the running line 'programming on the main' which is fine if you already know what they are. I make a habit of recording all CVs for my locos. You could do this manually using Excel but I prefer using JMRI.

 

DCC can be as easy as you like but can get complicated if you want more from it. Get used to the easier stuff first, like inching a loco up to the next on the same piece of track (I found this very addictive) before trying to learn about more complex stuff like double heading & speed matching.

 

No question is too silly. We were all novices once.

[WIMorrison]

3 minutes ago, RobinofLoxley said:

the smartphone screen, on 'Control Panel' has a wifi icon with a green tick through it at top right. No blue light I can see anywhere

 

Is this the App you are using?

 

Z21 – Apps on Google Play

[RobinofLoxley]

2 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

 

Is this the App you are using?

 

Z21 – Apps on Google Play

Yes. I have an old Samsung Galaxy Note 3 with Android v5 which is the oldest version of android that can run the app I believe

[RobinofLoxley]

5 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

I don't know the Z21 so cannot answer any questions about it.

Have patience, I am sure you will find the problem soon.

 

What you may or may not know:

When new & reset, decoders have a 'short' address of 3. Most of us use long addresses because you can have more & they can be more meaningful.

The program track is used for reading back CVs. (including the loco's address) You can program them on the running line 'programming on the main' which is fine if you already know what they are. I make a habit of recording all CVs for my locos. You could do this manually using Excel but I prefer using JMRI.

 

DCC can be as easy as you like but can get complicated if you want more from it. Get used to the easier stuff first, like inching a loco up to the next on the same piece of track (I found this very addictive) before trying to learn about more complex stuff like double heading & speed matching.

 

No question is too silly. We were all novices once.

appreciate the sentiment. Idea is to learn before I have a layout running...

[RobinofLoxley]

5 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

 

Is this the App you are using?

 

Z21 – Apps on Google Play

having just done the comparison on the link, the screen shots on your link look nothing like what I have downloaded. Have i got an old version?

[WIMorrison]

5 minutes ago, RobinofLoxley said:

appreciate the sentiment. Idea is to learn before I have a layout running...

You might have 

 

this is what it looks like on an iPhone, wife is out with Android so I can’t show you on that. The blue light shows it is connected.

 

I suggest that also need to set the loco address to 3 (assuming it is new decoder) as suggested earlier.

 

[woodenhead]

I did my first test of DCC on a 1 foot piece of track, A Sprog 3 and my computer.

 

Painful memory of burning out a brand new Zimo sound decoder - INSULATE, INSULATE & INSULATE.

 

If you have to do any wiring watch where everything is - I put my speaker in, everything worked until I put the body back on and the pressure sank the speaker against metal and bang.

[RobinofLoxley]

Thanks guys, loco runs on address#3. Trying to run before walking...

 

But Iain, no blue lights anywhere.

 

In fact that was as far as I expected to get today.

Edited February 11, 2021 by RobinofLoxley
additions

[woodenhead]

I've taken a similar approach, though somewhere I ended up fitting speakers into my N gauge DMUs.

 

Started with a 1 foot stretch of track on a plank - made a train go.

 

Then I built the layout, as I have an aversion to soldering I used Peco pre-soldered joiners for my track, these were connected to my bus using T-Tap connectors and connections between boards for the bus also used T-Taps so I can disconnect when I need to.

 

For points I am using Cobalt IP Digitals - these are all in one point motors which can be wired into a bus with no extra controllers and include frog switching - expensive but I am hoping worth it.  Have tested one but wired them in yet as I want to get the basic rolling of the locos around the layout sorted first and when I am happy with the track circuits I will move on to the point control - I wasn't going to bother with the frogs but I accept now I should do for better conductivity and power supply to the locos - nothing worse than having all your sound go off when one loco stalls on a point.

 

Given I was a confirmed DC modeller at the start of December and am now enjoying the sound of DMUs and diesels on my layout, I've been through quite a conversion.

 

Currently I am using Sprog 3 and JMRI - I am having some issues with my ipad and old Android phone connecting to the JMRI when on Wifi mode - it's hit and miss and PC control with my back to the layout isn't ideal.  If I don't resolve the tablet issues I think I might also go Z21, seen a lot of good things about it but I will continue with JMRI for the time being.

[WIMorrison]

32 minutes ago, RobinofLoxley said:

Thanks guys, loco runs on address#3. Trying to run before walking...

 

But Iain, no blue lights anywhere.

 

In fact that was as far as I expected to get today.

Here is the Android picture - note the blue bar at the top right

 

 

 

[RobinofLoxley]

I am attracted to the method of control with the Z21 - wireless, with as many of the peripherals of the layout as possible controlled through it - no extraneous switches, sensors, mimic panels. I'm interested in operating a model railway and populating it with stuff, not in programming at all (except for automation related stuff).  I had a large DC loft layout now being rebuilt, and as I convert locos I will be able to run it either DC (one loco at a time only) or DCC to check the loco conversions are effective enough for positional control on it - stopping at presets, uncoupling, etc etc.

[RobinofLoxley]

1 hour ago, WIMorrison said:

Here is the Android picture - note the blue bar at the top right

 

 

 

This is what I have.

[WIMorrison]

Which is the old, unsupported and no longer developed application

[WIMorrison]

23 minutes ago, RobinofLoxley said:

I am attracted to the method of control with the Z21 - wireless, with as many of the peripherals of the layout as possible controlled through it - no extraneous switches, sensors, mimic panels. I'm interested in operating a model railway and populating it with stuff, not in programming at all (except for automation related stuff).  I had a large DC loft layout now being rebuilt, and as I convert locos I will be able to run it either DC (one loco at a time only) or DCC to check the loco conversions are effective enough for positional control on it - stopping at presets, uncoupling, etc etc.

 You cannot run DC locos on a DCC layout - Lenz used to allow this but no other manufacturer does that I am aware of, and most definitely not Roco.

 

if you place a DC loco on the DCC track you will hear the noise that is made which tells you that the motor doesn’t like it.

[RobinofLoxley]

1 hour ago, WIMorrison said:

 You cannot run DC locos on a DCC layout - Lenz used to allow this but no other manufacturer does that I am aware of, and most definitely not Roco.

 

if you place a DC loco on the DCC track you will hear the noise that is made which tells you that the motor doesn’t like it.

I know I put the dunces hat on today but I do realise that, I didnt phrase the statement very  nicely. I will be using DC locos of known performance to test the new track as I lay it, then will switch the controllers over and repeat on DCC. Its to make sure everything runs without problems going forward.

 

BTW, the reason I selected the wrong app, or rather didnt notice, is that the Z21 manuals themselves have screenshots of the old version embedded. probably they are working on updated manuals but at the moment they are showing the out of date software shots. I feel vindicated...

 

Got as far as editing the loco address and speed curve today. I notice that even comparing crawl speed in the 2 apps it was better on the newer app. What fun awaits.

 

[WIMorrison]

You wouldn’t have been the first come here believing that you can run run a single DC loco on DCC hence me picking up on your comment, and sadly I suspect that this won’t be the last time the warning needs to be made that it is a very bad idea :(

 

[jpendle]

Hi,

 

Welcome to the wonderful world of the Z21/z21.

 

Do you have the black Z21 or the white z21?

 

The Z21 has a separate programming track output the z21 doesn't.

 

When the time comes, I would recommend installing the Z21 Maintenance app on a computer or the Z21 updater app on your phone, that way you can update the firmware to the latest version, V1.40 was released recently.

With Maintenance App you can also update the firmware of Zimo decoders.

 

The Z21 firmware updates fix issues and provide additional features.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[RobinofLoxley]

5 minutes ago, jpendle said:

Hi,

 

Welcome to the wonderful world of the Z21/z21.

 

Do you have the black Z21 or the white z21?

 

The Z21 has a separate programming track output the z21 doesn't.

 

When the time comes, I would recommend installing the Z21 Maintenance app on a computer or the Z21 updater app on your phone, that way you can update the firmware to the latest version, V1.40 was released recently.

With Maintenance App you can also update the firmware of Zimo decoders.

 

The Z21 firmware updates fix issues and provide additional features.

 

Regards,

 

John P

I have got the maintenance app, thank you. Then unbelievably today I was looking for cables to link everything and I had only one ethernet cable so I had to prioritise the z21 to wifi router.

 

I have acquired a white one second hand. I have a lot of stuff to buy and while in principle I could buy the lot in one go in practice I prefer to space it out and the cash will be going to MTB point motors, accessory decoders, etc.