Colour light signals in cuttings

[ikcdab]

So I need to place two colour light signals in a deep, steep sided brick lined cutting.

There is no room to have normal signal posts, so it will have to be mounted on the brick wall.

I cannot find any pics of this, even though I know I have seen plenty in the past.

Can anyone point me at some reference pics?

For info, my model is BR(S) 1960s, 4mm scale. I am not looking to absolute prototype authenticity but would like the signals to look the part.

I suppose I could sling  a gantry across the cutting wall to wall  and mount the signal heads on that. Is that prototypical?

Thanks

Edited February 21, 2021 by ikcdab

[bécasse]

If you assume that the signal was erected in the first half of the 1950s, a rather neat solution would have been to let a concrete bracket into the brickwork. I don't think that it was actually done anywhere but it would certainly have been possible and, incredibly, a few of the (free standing) concrete brackets are still in use today. This webpage gives historical details, including a dimensioned drawing, but be careful with the photos which show the current signals (and safety barriers) mounted on them and not what would have been there in the 1960s. Three things to note are that there would have been a ladder fixed to the cutting wall to allow S&T technicians to access the signal head(s), there would also have been a "signal post" telephone recessed into the cutting wall, and finally the red lens would have been the lowest of the three or four in the signal head (which would also have had long "ARP" hoods).

https://hydeparknow.uk/2020/12/05/seventy-years-of-main-line-signalling-in-london-2/

This page, from the same group of web pages, includes a number of contemporary photos of the concrete brackets:

https://hydeparknow.uk/2020/10/01/seventy-years-of-main-line-signalling-in-london/

Edited February 21, 2021 by bécasse

[ikcdab]

Thats very helpful.

I'm now wondering if I can create a recess in the embankment wall to accommodate one of these posts. 

I understand that red is the lowest aspect. But why the ARP hoods in this situation?

 

 

 

[Mark Saunders]

Try looking at Bradford Interchange photographs!

[bécasse]

42 minutes ago, ikcdab said:

But why the ARP hoods in this situation?

 

 

 

Because that is what the Southern Region were fitting to their colour light signals at that period - and it makes them very distinctive.

 

Incidentally, at that period colour light signals were as distinctive to their BR Region as the semaphore signals had been before them, so, although you might get some inspiration as to how a problem was solved elsewhere on another Region, the detail of that solution would be all wrong for your location and would have to be rethought - rather like ARP hoods! Note too, that the Southern had their own distinctive black on white number plates for colour light signals, which were prefixed C for the Central Division and W for the Western Division (and not prefixed for the Eastern Division - they got there first) followed by the one or two letter signal box code, while automatic signals were prefixed A, CA or WA. Plates for automatic signals also carried a black horizontal bar and those for semi-automatic signals the symbol  SEMI .

[LNERGE]

Eckon used to do a wall mounted colourlight.. If you find an abundant supply i could do with one...

[Dagworth]

 

11 minutes ago, LNERGE said:

Eckon used to do a wall mounted colourlight.. If you find an abundant supply i could do with one...

I’m pretty sure I’ve got one spare 

edit: just checked. I have two of them, neither required. 

 

Andi

Edited February 21, 2021 by Dagworth
More info

[LNERGE]

Cor blimey name your price!

 

 

[SRman]

Yes, there have been wall bracket mounted models, but another possible solution, one that I will be using for a restricted area on my Underground lines, would be a gantry of some sort, mounted to the walls. Mine will be a simple girder affair as favoured by LT, with one end mounted to the retaining wall, and the other either on a support post or attached to the viaduct walls that carry the main lines above. 

[ikcdab]

3 hours ago, SRman said:

Yes, there have been wall bracket mounted models, but another possible solution, one that I will be using for a restricted area on my Underground lines, would be a gantry of some sort, mounted to the walls. Mine will be a simple girder affair as favoured by LT, with one end mounted to the retaining wall, and the other either on a support post or attached to the viaduct walls that carry the main lines above. 

Thats what I was thinking of doing. Are there any prototypical  mainline examples?

[SRman]

2 hours ago, ikcdab said:

Thats what I was thinking of doing. Are there any prototypical  mainline examples?

I can't answer that one, but my suggestion would be to go on YouTube abd watch a few cab rides through areas that have deep cuttings and/or retaining walls. Quite afew lines out of London's termini have such features, as do several of the other major cities.

[Dagworth]

6 hours ago, LNERGE said:

Cor blimey name your price!

 

 

A pint when we can get back to exhibiting! 
 

Andi

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, ikcdab said:

Thats what I was thinking of doing. Are there any prototypical  mainline examples?

The only ones I can think of immediately are with signals mounted on small brackets fixed to the walls of brick lined areas in cuttings.  Erecting a large bracket structure in a cutting would involve quite a bit of excavation in many locations and a straight post mounting would be much cheaper igf there was any cutting back of the cutting side to do.  There does appear to have been at least one gantry fixed to the solid rock sidewalls of the cuttting approaching Liverpool Lime Street but that was a multiple track area.

 

Try to fnd a cab ride video along the Quarry Line at Redhill

[bécasse]

So far as I can remember there were no signals of this type along the length of the Quarry Line which was largely in broad cuttings through chalk - and the only place where there was a narrow "cutting" was through the erstwhile covered way at Coulsdon and there were no signals there.

 

I have remembered, and found an online (lower) photo of, the girder-based colour light signal gantry at the southern end of Penge Tunnel which was erected during the winter of 1958-59 as part of the Kent Coast scheme, but, although in a tight cutting, it still had upright supports at either end of the horizontal.

Edited February 22, 2021 by bécasse

[TheSignalEngineer]

At the Proof House end of the South Tunnel, Birmingham New Street had a gantry with a leg in a wide interval at one end and the other end built into the retaining wall. It carried signal NS149 on the gantry for the Up direction and NS154 on the leg for the Down direction.

The original Snow Hill station had one on the tunnel wall, the remains of which are pictured on the first page of my "Ghosts in the Machine" thread.

Edited February 22, 2021 by TheSignalEngineer

[SM42]

10 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

At the Proof House end of the South Tunnel Birmingham New Street had at least one gantry with a leg in a wide interval at one end and the other end built into the retaining wall. It carried signal NS149 on the gantry for the Up direction and NS154 on the leg for the Down direction.

The original Snow Hill station had one on the tunnel wall, the remains of which are pictured on the first page of my "Ghosts in the Machine" thread.

 

 

You can get a partial view of that (the Proof House one) on Google maps

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.4792706,-1.8907336,3a,75y,272.93h,87.33t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sSGZ-rYdo-2SVg8MWEvQmrQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DSGZ-rYdo-2SVg8MWEvQmrQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D58.583664%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

 

 

Andy

Edited February 22, 2021 by SM42

[NorthEndCab]

Do you mean like this sort of thing on the Up main leaving Sheffield?

[ikcdab]

Yes exactly. But having looked again, I think I can find the space now to put a gantry across, or at least a post and gantry one side and maybe the other end of the gantry supported on the wall.