Yet another 3-Rail Newbie

[PatB]

Of course, with modern drawing software, it's not too hard to draw up your own wagon artwork and create "in the spirit of" buildings by scanning old sheets and shuffling the elements around digitally.

[BernardTPM]

10 hours ago, sem34090 said:

Does anyone know when the Prototype range of card kits was first introduced?

Early 1970 seems to be the answer. RM April 1970 reviewed their printed LNER non-corridor coach body parts in BR Maroon "the first product from a new concern." I'd thought it was the 7mm scale Stamford Signal Box, but that came immediately after (followed by 2mm & 4mm scale versions), reviewed in the May edition.

The April issue would be out in March and I'd guess the item would be sent for review a couple of months before that.

Edited March 16, 2021 by BernardTPM

[Nearholmer]

I was seriously wrong there!

 

SEM - which year/s are you using as the benchmark for your retro-ness?

 

When I chose 1963, I then made sure I had a set of RMs for that year, to act as references. As I have just demonstrated, it is easy to mis-remember (or not know at all, if you weren't born yet) which products were available when.

 

The TCS is now firming-up plans for gatherings at Leicester in September and November, so if you can get to either, worth doing so, because the amount of retro-material both on display and for sale from rummage boxes is usually very impressive, and highly educational.

[sem34090]

50 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I was seriously wrong there!

 

SEM - which year/s are you using as the benchmark for your retro-ness?

We're still working on that. We're thinking roughly 1964-5 but with the layout largely representing the late '50s. The theory is that by the mid-60s Dublo stuff was cheap enough for our theoretical modeller to afford.

 

Sadly that would seem to rule out Prototype kits then.

50 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

When I chose 1963, I then made sure I had a set of RMs for that year, to act as references. As I have just demonstrated, it is easy to mis-remember (or not know at all, if you weren't born yet) which products were available when.

I probably have some somewhere, but yes that would be a good idea.

50 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

The TCS is now firming-up plans for gatherings at Leicester in September and November, so if you can get to either, worth doing so, because the amount of retro-material both on display and for sale from rummage boxes is usually very impressive, and highly educational.

Could be useful, although Leicester is quite the stretch from Aberystwyth!

[Nearholmer]

51 minutes ago, sem34090 said:

Leicester is quite the stretch from Aberystwyth!

 

Only five hours and one change of train in each direction - do young railway enthusiasts have no pluck these days!?

[sem34090]

15 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

 

Only five hours and one change of train in each direction - do young railway enthusiasts have no pluck these days!?

More like no money... Especially after buying HD products!

 

Certainly doable though, really. I should've known, really as I had to do Aberystwyth to Highgate and back in one day a few weeks back (Essential Travel because of this '38 Tube Stock preservation bid I'm running). That was 'fun'; Aberystwyth, Shrewsbury, Crewe, Euston, Highgate, then back via Warren Street, Oxford Circus, Marylebone, Birmingham Moor Street, New Street then Shrewsbury again. A bloody long day!

[Hroth]

Mid-60s is a good point for your retro layout.  Hattons ads for the era have lots of HD 3rail at bargain prices after the factory clear out...

 

The problem nowadays is that collectoritis means that useful stuff is eyewateringly expensive.  My Dublo collection has most of the locos I need for an authentic rule-1 layout, it'd be nice to have a West Country and a diesel shunter, perhaps a Co-Bo too, but at present I'll make do...

 

Edited March 16, 2021 by Hroth

[BernardTPM]

3 hours ago, sem34090 said:

We're still working on that. We're thinking roughly 1964-5 but with the layout largely representing the late '50s. The theory is that by the mid-60s Dublo stuff was cheap enough for our theoretical modeller to afford.

Mainstream then would be Bilteezi & Superquick (card), and Airfix & Tri-ang Real Estate/Model Land (plastic kits). The hardest to get now would be Model Land or perhaps some of the early Superquick kits. The Airfix buildings are still made by Dapol while a fair bit of the Bilteezi range is still around too.

For R-T-R railway buildings Tri-ang and Hornby Dublo each made the usual types (stations, sheds, signal boxes, etc.). HD had been cast metal in the '50s switching to plastic around 1960 and have a 1930s feel to them (metal and plastic buildings are different designs). Tri-ang had 'Victorian / Edwardian' styled railway buildings in the '50s replaced by a '1960s Modern' range around 1962-3.

For smaller accessories and figures the old Merit range covered a broad range and now forms the bulk of the Peco Modelscene range.

For figures made in this period in general see my guide here.

[PatB]

It's been a couple of years since I looked at Dublo prices, but unless things have changed radically, if you stay away from real rarities and are happy with pieces in good rather than mint condition, putting together enough for a modest layout should be quite a lot cheaper than doing the same with modern stock. Especially as you can supement the real thing with homebrew wood, card and paper bodies on salvaged chassis from the junk boxes under swap meet tables. 

 

It might not be a bad idea to get hold of some of, eg, Edward Beal's books on rolling stock construction. Whilst pre-1960s, most of the techniques he describes were still in widespread use in the period. 

[Nearholmer]

Agree.

 

When I bought stock for my "1963 BLT", the only things I paid "over the odds" for were a Wrenn EE350 and EE1000, both because the HD 2-rail  versions of these models had design faults, which Wrenn fixed. They were both "mint in box" (absolutely no signs of use), and even they were considerably less costly than new, modern equivalent, because I carefully steered clear of rare variants. Genuine HD is typically cheaper than Wrenn, again unless its a weird variant.

[PatB]

10 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Agree.

 

When I bought stock for my "1963 BLT", the only things I paid "over the odds" for were a Wrenn EE350 and EE1000, both because the HD 2-rail  versions of these models had design faults, which Wrenn fixed. They were both "mint in box" (absolutely no signs of use), and even they were considerably less costly than new, modern equivalent, because I carefully steered clear of rare variants. Genuine HD is typically cheaper than Wrenn, again unless its a weird variant.

I must confess to being very puzzled as to why prices for Wrenn locos achieved low Earth orbit a few years ago. They seem to have returned to somewhat saner levels now, which must have upset a few people. 

[Nearholmer]

There's still rampant "collectorism" in Wrenn, even if the prices have settled back a bit.

 

A run of the mill MIB BR livery 2-6-4T fetches c£100 from a dealer, maybe c£75 from a private individual, which to me seems reasonable given the quality and durability of the item. But, if it has red, rather than prototypical straw-coloured, numerals, or has a less than common number, the price doubles and more, and there is one on ebay currently, MIB, but the ordinary number, advertised for £294 (+£12 P&P).

 

Caveat emptor!

[GoingUnderground]

Reading Maurice Gunter's "Story of Wrenn", I can't help getting the feeling that Wrenn was almost a cottage industry, making relatively small batches of items, and using outworkers to assemble items at home in some cases.

 

When they closed in 1964, Dublo had stock coming out of their ears, allegedly down to Roland Hornby insisting that any drop in sales was temporary and there must be stock on hand for when trade picked up again.

 

Trix were hampered by their strange choice of scale which meant that many items will have been produced in smaller quantities than Dublo or Rovex. But with a few limited exceptions, notably the AL1, EM1, and possibly the TransPennine Class 124s, the passing of time doesn't seem to have made their products more desirable, possibly because they are much less well known that Dublo or Triang, and the number of Trix enthusiasts must also have been declining with the passing of time. Back in the 1960s, I'd heard of Trix, but they weren't stocked by the usual model railway outlets (toy & sports/bike shops) in the area where we lived, only in the dedicated model shops in the nearest big town 5 miles away, so I wasn't really aware of them, at least not until I saw a secondhand early EM1 for sale in around 1970 in a model shop.

. 

Rovex, as the market leaders, will have tended to produce larger volumes in longer production runs, so it's not supprising that by and large their prices are pretty low. But the less common items do attract slightly raised prices, such as the EM2, Steeple Cab, and, of course the Australian Sydney Suburban stock. 

 

Looking at Dublo, and Triang, there will be plenty of items still around, and more coming on to the market as the post-war baby boomers like me who got started in  our hobby with Dublo or Triang trainsets are getting to an age where we're either dropping off the perch and our kids are selling off our stuff, or we're having to sell off our beloved trains ourselves because of the need to downsize in preparation for our old age and a move to a smaller and more manageable home.

 

So, looked at in terms of the availability of items versus the number of folks potentially interested in them, Wrenn seems to me to stand out as the brand with the lowest availability of items in relation to the number of folks potentially interested in them. Hence the higher prices, but they will probably continue to fall as the availability increases as the number of folks interested in Wrenn declines just like it has for Dublo and Triang.

[Il Grifone]

My daughter has this strange downsizing idea.

I cannot understand what she means! Too many/much trains, dinosaurs, books, Meccano etc.. It's a contradiction in terms....  

[NCB]

Back in the 1950s, I remember my father making up some building kits for my brother's HD railway. They were balsa wood (I think) with building paper overlays to stick on. Windows were printed on acetate. Made not bad models. Think we had a station, goods shed and signal box. Any idea what they were?

[BernardTPM]

Possibly Anorma? There were quite a few kits like that in the 1940s/'50s. They turn up on ebay quite frequently. Plenty of pictures.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Early Ratio kits were also made from wood, including buildings and platforms, as well as rolling stock.

 

Then they moved into injection moulded plastic kits....

 

 

This thread may be of interest...

 

 

[PatB]

8 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

There's still rampant "collectorism" in Wrenn, even if the prices have settled back a bit.

 

A run of the mill MIB BR livery 2-6-4T fetches c£100 from a dealer, maybe c£75 from a private individual, which to me seems reasonable given the quality and durability of the item. But, if it has red, rather than prototypical straw-coloured, numerals, or has a less than common number, the price doubles and more, and there is one on ebay currently, MIB, but the ordinary number, advertised for £294 (+£12 P&P).

 

Caveat emptor!

On the point of durability, I think that's a major selling point for 3-rail Dublo and, perhaps to a slightly lesser extent, Triang locos. Get a good one and you have a piece that will last, (and, perhaps more significantly, run) essentially, for ever, short of running it over with a steamroller or dropping it into an active volcano. There is no part of a Dublo mech which cannot be replaced by the ordinary enthusiast working at the kitchen table. There aren't even many parts that can't be made or refurbished with only a little greater effort or skill. 

 

I only place Triang and 2-rail Dublo slightly lower due to their plastic bodies being a little more fragile, and their self-contained motors being a bit more sophisticated. The difference, however, is not large. 

[GoingUnderground]

10 hours ago, PatB said:

On the point of durability, I think that's a major selling point for 3-rail Dublo and, perhaps to a slightly lesser extent, Triang locos. Get a good one and you have a piece that will last, (and, perhaps more significantly, run) essentially, for ever, short of running it over with a steamroller or dropping it into an active volcano. There is no part of a Dublo mech which cannot be replaced by the ordinary enthusiast working at the kitchen table. There aren't even many parts that can't be made or refurbished with only a little greater effort or skill. 

 

I only place Triang and 2-rail Dublo slightly lower due to their plastic bodies being a little more fragile, and their self-contained motors being a bit more sophisticated. The difference, however, is not large. 

Polystyrene can become brittle with age, especially if it has been exposed to direct sunlight for much if its life, which is why I am always cautions when taking apart any plastic assemblies that are held together using push or clip in fit on older models. But metal fixings especially folded over fixing/locating tabs can be short lived as they tend not to like being bent back and forth too often. 

 

But the mechanisms from the 1950s and 60s were designed for manual assembly at a time when labour costs were relatively low. Fixings tended to be nuts and bolts or machine screws, not permanently welded plastic. Also servicing and availability of replacements for wearing parts seemed to matter more in those days, possibly helped by the fact that models tended to be available for many years and manufacture was carried out in the UK so spares were easily obtainable. Indeed, being able to repair the models at home or being able to take them to a local servicing agent was used as a selling point. I don't know about Dublo, but every Triang loco used to be supplied with two booklets, one telling you how to look after your loco and keep its moving parts oiled, much like today, and the second booklet listed retailers offering servicing and repairs. And home assembly was used as a selling point by both Triang with their CKD locos and coaches, and by Trix.

 

All in all a quite different to today.

[sem34090]

So, my N2 arrived today. Before doing anything to it I did just want to quickly check that it's not a particularly rare variant; 6917 in LMS Post-War Black. The lettering is cream, shaded red, as I believe was correct for the LMS at that time.

I only ask as in most of the photos I can find the lettering is yellow, rather than cream. If it's not anything special then she'll be gaining LNER livery for now then BR once I have the right transfers.

Edited March 17, 2021 by sem34090

[Hroth]

3 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

but every Triang loco used to be supplied with two booklets, one telling you how to look after your loco and keep its moving parts oiled

 

And came with a little bottle of Shell lubricating oil to help you do so.

 

[PatB]

1 hour ago, sem34090 said:

So, my N2 arrived today. Before doing anything to it I did just want to quickly check that it's not a particularly rare variant; 6917 in LMS Post-War Black. The lettering is cream, shaded red, as I believe was correct for the LMS at that time.

I only ask as in most of the photos I can find the lettering is yellow, rather than cream. If it's not anything special then she'll be gaining LNER livery for now then BR once I have the right transfers.

I refurbished a well battered N2 using the easy method of self adhesive tank and bunker sides, bought off Ebay. Unfortunately, I gather that the chap selling such things has since passed on, and so that route is only available if you're willing to do your own artwork and printing. Which I might contemplate, because it was much simpler than mucking about with transfers. After a coat of varnish, you (well, I) really can't tell how it's been done. 

[PatB]

3 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

Polystyrene can become brittle with age, especially if it has been exposed to direct sunlight for much if its life, which is why I am always cautions when taking apart any plastic assemblies that are held together using push or clip in fit on older models. But metal fixings especially folded over fixing/locating tabs can be short lived as they tend not to like being bent back and forth too often. 

 

But the mechanisms from the 1950s and 60s were designed for manual assembly at a time when labour costs were relatively low. Fixings tended to be nuts and bolts or machine screws, not permanently welded plastic. Also servicing and availability of replacements for wearing parts seemed to matter more in those days, possibly helped by the fact that models tended to be available for many years and manufacture was carried out in the UK so spares were easily obtainable. Indeed, being able to repair the models at home or being able to take them to a local servicing agent was used as a selling point. I don't know about Dublo, but every Triang loco used to be supplied with two booklets, one telling you how to look after your loco and keep its moving parts oiled, much like today, and the second booklet listed retailers offering servicing and repairs. And home assembly was used as a selling point by both Triang with their CKD locos and coaches, and by Trix.

 

All in all a quite different to today.

In defence of modern manufacturers, it must be recognised that increased prototype fidelity makes it harder to stock and supply spares. When, for example, all your 6 coupled locos use the same chassis block, coupling rods, often wheels and, of course, motor and gears, it's easy to keep a stock of wearing parts on hand that will cover everything. Not so simple when every loco is externally unique, even if you're able to design in a bit of commonality where it doesn't show. 

[GoingUnderground]

1 hour ago, PatB said:

In defence of modern manufacturers, it must be recognised that increased prototype fidelity makes it harder to stock and supply spares. When, for example, all your 6 coupled locos use the same chassis block, coupling rods, often wheels and, of course, motor and gears, it's easy to keep a stock of wearing parts on hand that will cover everything. Not so simple when every loco is externally unique, even if you're able to design in a bit of commonality where it doesn't show. 

I'm not going to argue against what you say as it's true. But when the only way to replace worn carbon brushes is to replace the entire can motor, always assuming that a replacement motor can be bought, that things have gone too far at least for me.

[GoingUnderground]

2 hours ago, Hroth said:

 

And came with a little bottle of Shell lubricating oil to help you do so.

 

Indeed, and not Just Triang Railways, as Scalextric and Minic Motorways also had the same little bottle of oil, complete with the same red seal over the cork and dipper rod in the cork, but with a Scalextric or Minic label instead of the Triang Railways one. Trix and I think Dublo did likewise.

 

Nowadays we're told to make our own dipper and source our own oil, unless the gear train is one that is supplied pre-coated in lubricating grease.