PECO Bullhead Unifrog: Spring removal after laying

[Damo666]

I've spent a lot of time this afternoon searching both RMWeb and the Internet on how to remove the point spring in a Peco Unifrog point when has been fixed to the baseboard.

 

Of the limited advice I've so far seen (about 2 posts), the recommended method of removing the spring from the tie bar is from the underside before you lay the point. I'm replacing my Seep motors with Cobalt motors and so cannot access the underside of the point.

 

One post I've seen said to remove the spring with a paper clip, but I'd either like to see some pictures or other people advocating the same before I do this.

 

And others done this?

[Nile]

Looks doable with some tweezers or a small screwdriver. You need to push the ends out of the notches they are in.

[Damo666]

1 hour ago, Nile said:

Looks doable with some tweezers or a small screwdriver. You need to push the ends out of the notches they are in.

Hi Nile,

 

Pull the spring up, or push the spring down into the baseboard?

[Ben Alder]

It can be done - I knocked it out during some PW work  ... needed to replace the point as the motor wouldn't hold the blades in place securely enough- long story - but can't tell you how I managed it.

 

[DCB]

Is there any soumd reason the cobalt can't throw the point with the spring in place?  It should give quite a realistic action for a mechanically operated point, take up the strain then throw it over if the cobalt can actually manage it...

[Nile]

9 hours ago, Damo666 said:

Hi Nile,

 

Pull the spring up, or push the spring down into the baseboard?

Push the end of the spring sideways, out of the notch it is in. Do that to both ends and it will no longer act on the tie-bar.

But as DCB asks, have you tried using the Cobolt with the point as it is? It should be strong enough.

[Damo666]

8 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

Is there any soumd reason the cobalt can't throw the point with the spring in place?  It should give quite a realistic action for a mechanically operated point, take up the strain then throw it over if the cobalt can actually manage it...

Thanks David,

 

I haven't tried this, but I'd prefer not to hear the click of the point switching nor the sudden movement as it's not very prototypical.

[Pete the Elaner]

22 minutes ago, Damo666 said:

 

I haven't tried this, but I'd prefer not to hear the click of the point switching nor the sudden movement as it's not very prototypical.

 

How prototypical it is depends on how depends on how the prototype would be thrown.

A motor throws the point smoothly.

A point thrown by a frame is very different. It is a little like releasing a seized nut. Levers are usually quite stiff, so the bobby would wrap his rag around the lever, squeeze the lock handle & put all his weight behind it. The point will throw quite quickly. Try to be more gentle & it simply won't shift.

The result would be a point thrown somewhere between the slow action of a Tortoise/Cobalt & the sudden click of a solenoid.

[meil]

40 minutes ago, Damo666 said:

Thanks David,

 

I haven't tried this, but I'd prefer not to hear the click of the point switching nor the sudden movement as it's not very prototypical.

Really! - you clearly have not observed the prototype particularly carefully.

[Damo666]

2 minutes ago, meil said:

Really! - you clearly have not observed the prototype particularly carefully.

You are right, I haven't heard the prototype, neither carefully or otherwise.

 

I hadn't realised that the action of the point would have been era dependent, but I can see now from Pete's reply that it would have been useful to mention in my OP that my layout is modern era, although to be fair my question was about removing the spring and not the sound of the prototype.

[Nile]

56 minutes ago, Damo666 said:

I'd prefer not to hear the click of the point switching

You probably wont hear it over the noise the motor makes. Despite what they claim, Cobalts are not quiet.

[DCB]

It's actually quite difficult to catch the movement of points on video, the lever movement of both semaphore signals and mechanically operated points is very swift once the signalman has taken the strain/ slack in the system.  I reckon its about 1/4 of a second.  As a conductor (Musical not Bus) I'm used to timing music, normal 2020 British Army marching is at 120 paces/ beats per minute, one every half second, and I reckon a lever bangs over in half the time it takes to rake one step at that pace.  so 1/4 of a second. I have spent ages pointing video cameras at signals at Grosmont NYMR and Buckfastleigh SDR trying to get the moment the signals / points move on film with very ilittle success.   usually the signal post seems to wobble/ vibrate for about 5 times as long as it takes the signa to move.    Solenoids are too quick for mechanical points/ signals but servos are too slow, probably the best answer for realistic operation of mechancal  points and signals is probably a bit of wire with a knob on the end.  Having said that car door lock motors seem promising if I can get the leverage to tame the maximum right. 

[Grovenor]

Prototype 110V electric point motors take about 3 seconds for the move, 24V machines around 15 seconds.

Clamp locks around 2-3 seconds.

Air operated machines are very quick, faster than points on a mechanical frame.

[Grovenor]

This Peco point has the spring in place, the servo can control the speed of throw.

Sorry the dummy motor is a bit loose. just a temporary blue tack lash up, to prove the method. Ideal for motor worked points.

https://youtu.be/iczXMIsYFeA

[Damo666]

The answer to my own question, based on advice above and my own experience is:

 

Method 1: Using a 'normal' sized flat screwdriver (size similar to a neon mains phase tester), push the spring down with gentle force. I did this with my first point, the spring suddenly released and hit the desk before then went flying somewhere. I'm not confident that this is the best method.

 

Method 2: With a jewellers flat blade screwdriver, pull the spring sideways and slightly downward. I'd have to move the tie-bar a little to get the best exposure on the spring before doing this, as the gap exposing the spring wire is very small. The spring would then pop out of one of the holes and could be lifted out.