White Discs with Letters/Number

[Dave Stapleton]

Hi

 

I have seen some photos of Pannier Tanks pulling coal trains in the the South Wales area which have 'Dinner Plate' size white discs mounted on the front or rear of some engines, these discs also have numbers and letters on them - see below.

 

These engines also have Lamps mounted in the relevent Headcode positions, so can someone explain what these discs are and what the letters and number mean, or refer to please?

 

Thanks, Dave.

[Steamport Southport]

Someone will come up with a more exact answer.

 

But they were duty numbers I believe. Where the train itself had to be identified rather than just labelled as a freight/goods train. Shunters, station pilots and bankers also got them.

 

This is a station pilot at Paddington.

 

Photo Ben Brooksbank

 

 

 

Jason

Edited March 27, 2021 by Steamport Southport

[Wheatley]

Yes, they're duty numbers or target/trip numbers. Before 4 charachter headcodes became universal trains were normally known by either a name / nickname, departure time, origin or destination depending on local custom. That doesn't work with trips and shunters, so the duty number was used instead. Local variations are legion - A, B, C etc or 1, 2, 3. If you have a letter and number that may reference a Control office, so in my bit of the world "K57" was a trip working to Kilmarnock Control's instructions, later A57 when the Control office moved to Ayr. 

Edited March 27, 2021 by Wheatley

[The Johnster]

‘Target’ numbers identifying the particular locomotive diagram working, very useful to signalmen in particular and everyone else in general in an area where there were a lot of coal trains that looked the same.  The signalmen had to report the passing times to Control, and of course route the trains correctly at junctions.  The letter indicated the shed that the duty was from and the number the specific working.  Not quite the specific train as each duty might involve several different trains throughout the loco’s working day. 
 

They were used mostly on mineral trains, and not on passenger workings, except for autos, which were identified in this way after 1953, when a timetable alteration increased the amount of auto working in the area. 

[Dave Stapleton]

Hi Johnster

 

Thanks for that, you say "..the Letter indicates the Shed that the duty was from..."  Would there be a list that would identify the Shed from the Letters?

 

I assume this didn't relate to Shed Plate Numbers?

[The Johnster]

It did in some cases, but 'deferred' to ease of reading in others.  For instance Tondu, 86F and later 88E, used 'U' as the indentifier.  'Target' is an acronym for Trip As Required Goods Engine Turn.  There were over 250 in daily use in the Cardiff Valleys in 1957, giving you an idea of the intensity of working and the need to instantly identify individual trains which, because they were 'as required' (most ran daily), were not fully detailed in the WTT.  They denoted thus:-

 

A = Aberdare

B = Barry

C = Cathays

D = Radyr

F = Ferndale

J = Abercynon (this equates to the shedcode, 88J)

R = Rhymney (period spelling)

T = Treherbert

U = TondU

 

The auto targets (not used at Tondu in the form of discs carried on the locos) were alphabetical, thus Auto JB is an Abercynon job, the (in)famous St Fagan's Pullman, le Abercynon-Pontypridd work train to Clarence Road (Cardiff Riverside Branch) via Barry Rly. route Church Village/Creigiau/Tyn y Caeau Jc thence SWML to Cardiff General, then 2 return trips to Penarth, return via Tyn y Caeau to Pontypridd, lunchtime crew relief then complete repeat performance in afternoon, terminating Cardiff General SO, with a 64xx on one bunker of coal, a mileage that would not shame a main line job for a Castle.  An issue with auto targets was that there was no lamp bracket on the leading trailer to place the target when propelling, half the mileage, .

 

The freight turns were mostly colliery clearances, but included transfer freight; Tondu for instance had turns to Cardiff Pengam Sidings and Llandeilo Junction (Llanelli).  Many of the target numbers survived as the last two digits of local working headcodes into the diesel era.

 

 

 

[chrisf]

On 27/03/2021 at 11:55, The Johnster said:

 They were used mostly on mineral trains, and not on passenger workings, except for autos, which were identified in this way after 1953, when a timetable alteration increased the amount of auto working in the area. 

In the Cardiff Valleys they certainly were used on passenger duties, even into the early part of the dmu era, and not just on autos.  I would copy out my card index for you but that might take the rest of my life and bore the pants off everyone else!  The principle seems to be that the first loco off shed in the morning would be [depot] A, the second [depot] B and so on, but as with all principles there were departures from the rule.  Most of what I know comes from studying photographs over half a lifetime or more, many taken by the late Sid Rickard.  If you can lay your hands on the list of his photographs issued by J&J, aka Keith Jones of Mountain Ash, you wil find much more information in its 147 pages.  

 

Chris 

[chrisf]

Here is a photo of a passenger train whose loco bears a target board.  I hope the late Michael Hale will not mind me sharing it.  The train is the 12 noon Barry Island - Merthyr at Radyr on 30th July 1955.

 

Chris

[The Johnster]

Yes, the passenger trains carried targets as well as I now realise.  Tondu ones didn't, although the loco turns may well have been delineated in the same.  You've already aquainted me with the Tondu targets and I am going to invent some for Cwmdimbath.  Would the Roxey SR headcode discs, which can be attached to lamp brackets, be suitable?

 

Interesting to see the first two coaches in GW 1945-7 livery, or perhpas it's early 1948 BR, and an interesting mix in the train.  I make it loco, 57' B/E Collett brake third, ditto third, ditto compo, Hawksworth third, 57' B/E Collett brake third, the usual 5 coach Cardiff Valleys set, and 2 Collett flat ended thirds as strengtheners.  30th July 1955 was a Saturday, so Barry Island traffic would have been heavy to the Island, but this train is probably quite lightly loaded.  It'll be rammed on it's next trip up from the Island!

Edited March 28, 2021 by The Johnster

[chrisf]

Its next trip up from the Island would have been at 6 pm.  This is the weekend before August Bank Holiday.   MA was booked for a Barry standard 3 tank during the week but those valiant machines were apparently not up to hauling 7 coaches, hence the 56xx.

 

Roxey discs would be my choice too.

 

Chris

[Rivercider]

As both the Barnstaple and Minehead branches diverged from the main line at Norton Fitzwarren the headcode discs for branch trains from Taunton carried the letter B or M to aid the signalmen.

 

cheers

[Dave Stapleton]

Thank you all for the information given here, a fully answered question in my humble opinion.  Thank you again.

 

Dave

[Dave Stapleton]

Now, slightly off my own topic but can I ask if anyone has some good photos of the main Radyr station building as it was in the 1950s/1960s please?

 

I use to catch the train from Radyr every morning to go to school at Whitchurch and back again in the evening during the early 1960s.  I almost always hung around for a hour or so on the opposite platform most evenings watching the shunters and chating to the crews as they waited next to the platform.

 

I would like to build a 00 gauge replica of the station building if I can some photos showing the detail of the building, from all angles.

 

Thanks in advance.

[br2975]

On 28/03/2021 at 19:55, The Johnster said:

It did in some cases, but 'deferred' to ease of reading in others.  For instance Tondu, 86F and later 88E, used 'U' as the indentifier.  'Target' is an acronym for Trip As Required Goods Engine Turn.  There were over 250 in daily use in the Cardiff Valleys in 1957, giving you an idea of the intensity of working and the need to instantly identify individual trains which, because they were 'as required' (most ran daily), were not fully detailed in the WTT.  They denoted thus:-

 

A = Aberdare

B = Barry

C = Cathays

D = Radyr

F = Ferndale

J = Abercynon (this equates to the shedcode, 88J)

R = Rhymney (period spelling)

T = Treherbert

U = TondU

 

Just a few amendments to 'The Johnsters' post

.

D = Cardiff East Dock (or the nearby Roath Basin Junction) ..... which only became Radyr duties when Cardiff East Dock closed to steam the first time, circa 1957.

H = Cardiff Canton / Penarth Curve North (at one time)

K = Dowlais Cae Harris

U = Dowlais Central  (in addition to Tondu)*

Y = RadYr

Z = Llantrisant

.

* = Although Tondu and Dowlais Central both used the prefix 'U', Dowlais only had two duties, and there was no probability of Dowlais and/or Tondu duties coming into contact, to cause any confusion.

.

'TARGETS' were also used in the Newport (Western and Eastern) valleys.

.

Brian R

Edited May 4, 2021 by br2975

[br2975]

On 29/03/2021 at 19:15, Dave Stapleton said:

Now, slightly off my own topic but can I ask if anyone has some good photos of the main Radyr station building as it was in the 1950s/1960s please?

 

I may be able to help, I'll check my files.

.

Brian R

[br2975]

On 28/03/2021 at 19:55, The Johnster said:

The freight turns were mostly colliery clearances, but included transfer freight; Tondu for instance had turns to Cardiff Pengam Sidings and Llandeilo Junction (Llanelli).  Many of the target numbers survived as the last two digits of local working headcodes into the diesel era.

 

I would have to disagree with 'The Johnster' on this subject.

.

The introduction of 4-character reporting numbers in South Wales also saw a move away from the existing 'TARGET' system.

.

By 1964, when Cl.37 diesels were coming on stream, and working turn about with the existing Valleys steam locos, the Cardiff District Trip Workings were as follows;

F = Rhymney

G = Abercynon

H = Radyr (including Aber Junction)

J = Barry

K = Dowlais cae Harris

L = Aberdare

T = Treherbert (including Merthyr and Dowlais Central)

.

The  train reporting numbers were displayed in full on the diesel locos, whereas the 'TARGET' plates used on steam locos only used the 'letter' denoting the shed/yard responsible, and the corresponding two digits of the diagram

.

As an example,

Prior to this change, Radyr 'TARGET' Y10 had been 

Y.10  6.50 am 6.35 am  Radyr Quarry Junction, Roath Basin Junction and Creigiau Quarries.  

But became the 'reporting number' 9H12

working;

9H12 05:50           Radyr Jcn                                    Creigiau Quarries                                                                    

finishing up as                                                                                                                                                      

9H12 14:30           Radyr Quarry Jcn                       Dowlais Works 

 

The attached Bob Masterman photo confirms this and shows 6684 climbing 'The Big Hill' at Penrhos in 1964 (to reach the Rhymney Valley at Aber Jcn.)  with 9H28 shown as H28, a Radyr based duty that took in Cardiff Marshalling Sidings and Elliott Colliery, Brithdir.

Edited May 4, 2021 by br2975

[Darwinian]

Does anyone know when the target discs were introduced? I’m modelling the period 1929 - 34 but most published photos are mostly BR era or pre grouping.

Were target discs in use in my period?

 

[Happy Hippo]

On Page 140 of Eric Mountford's book on the Cardiff Railway, there is a picture of GW159, ex CR28 at the head of a train of cattle wagons near Roath Storage Sidings.  The photo is dated c. 1923. The limed cattle wagons definitely date it to pre BR days!

 

The loco has a diamond shaped target lettered CD 2.

 

So it would appear that the GWR were using targets for the SW Valleys immediately after the grouping.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Happy Hippo

[Darwinian]

15 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

On Page 140 of Eric Mountford's book on the Cardiff Railway, there is a picture of GW159, ex CR28 at the head of a train of cattle wagons near Roath Storage Sidings.  The photo is dated c. 1923. The limed cattle wagons definitely date it to pre BR days!

 

The loco has a diamond shaped target lettered CD 2.

 

So it would appear that the GWR were using targets for the SW Valleys immediately after the grouping.

Interesting, I hadn’t looked at that book recently. I wonder if CD was Cardiff docks shed. 

I wonder if diamond shaped targets were common on other constituents and when the change to round started.

[Happy Hippo]

1 minute ago, Darwinian said:

Interesting, I hadn’t looked at that book recently. I wonder if CD was Cardiff docks shed. 

I wonder if diamond shaped targets were common on other constituents and when the change to round started.

CD for Cardiff Docks would be a possibility, and would make sense.

 

The round ones were not unique as there were quite a few triangular shaped targets in BR days.

 

There may or may not have some reason for this, but that's way beyond my rather rudimentary knowledge of the system.