New lineside work in Yorkshire

[Michael Edge]

While out cycling last week I came across this new work alongside the Swinton & Knottingley near Frickley.

Photo taken from the road bridge looking north towards Moorthorpe - what is it and what is it for? Looks like a half built level crossing and a car park, although there doesn't seem to be any road access.

[black and decker boy]

Looks like an RRV access point 

[sir douglas]

there is a similar access yard just east of Wakefield Kirkgate next to a new bridge built a few years ago

[dp123]

That's a RRAP, or Road Rail Access Point. Nice to see someone making the effort to put a proper vehicle park there, as RRAPs are exceptionally useful. Not only do you have the machines themselves needing access, but the access point needs to accommodate lorries from artic low loaders to 6 or 8 wheel crane rigids and vehicles for the staff. Some existing accesses are ridiculously poor for this and its a wonder how machines ever get delivered. A good RRAP is good for welders, too, as you can back the vans right onto the line and offload their (heavy and numerous) items and kit direct to a trolley or trailer. 

[Fat Controller]

What might be an idea on these access points are clear markings indicating which way the tracks run. I've heard of too many incidents of RRVs turning the wrong way, sometimes taking the line not under possession. 

[dp123]

Idea discussed, approved and installed. These signs have existed for a good while but are increasing and de facto standard (though seemingly not yet universal). Most major points I've used over the last few years have these location information signs. IMO absolutely critical items given the railway now works on travelling labour. 

[Ncarter2]

8 hours ago, dp123 said:

That's a RRAP, or Road Rail Access Point. Nice to see someone making the effort to put a proper vehicle park there, as RRAPs are exceptionally useful. Not only do you have the machines themselves needing access, but the access point needs to accommodate lorries from artic low loaders to 6 or 8 wheel crane rigids and vehicles for the staff. Some existing accesses are ridiculously poor for this and its a wonder how machines ever get delivered. A good RRAP is good for welders, too, as you can back the vans right onto the line and offload their (heavy and numerous) items and kit direct to a trolley or trailer. 

Or drive the Canters and Landrovers straight on. 

[Ncarter2]

7 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

What might be an idea on these access points are clear markings indicating which way the tracks run. I've heard of too many incidents of RRVs turning the wrong way, sometimes taking the line not under possession. 

Should have hit Marker Boards or at the very least Stop Boards and dets. If not and they end up on a line not under possession that raises concerning questions. 

[Fat Controller]

10 minutes ago, Ncarter2 said:

Should have hit Marker Boards or at the very least Stop Boards and dets. If not and they end up on a line not under possession that raises concerning questions. 

One particular case I was thinking of was where  a RRV turned the wrong at an access point near Burton. Attempts by signallers to contact the driver were ineffective, and I believe he finally stopped when he encountered a closed level crossing barrier, RAIB did produce a report.

Stop boards and dets are often placed in the wrong place; they're 'frequent fliers' in the logs.

[Edwin_m]

1 hour ago, Ncarter2 said:

Should have hit Marker Boards or at the very least Stop Boards and dets. If not and they end up on a line not under possession that raises concerning questions. 

If only one line is under possession and they put the RRV on the other one then there are no marker boards to stop them, unless they see them on the adjacent line and realise.  

[Ncarter2]

7 hours ago, Edwin_m said:

If only one line is under possession and they put the RRV on the other one then there are no marker boards to stop them, unless they see them on the adjacent line and realise.  

Having planned and used RRV’s, I don’t get how that happens. If the RRV can foul the adjacent line, it has to be blocked, even if it’s just for on/off tracking. If after taking a LB of an open line and the machine is put on the wrong line, I would seriously question those who briefed the team delivering and those carrying out the duties. To get to a point a RRV is on an open line says a lot for a section. 

[Ncarter2]

8 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

One particular case I was thinking of was where  a RRV turned the wrong at an access point near Burton. Attempts by signallers to contact the driver were ineffective, and I believe he finally stopped when he encountered a closed level crossing barrier, RAIB did produce a report.

Stop boards and dets are often placed in the wrong place; they're 'frequent fliers' in the logs.

On the southern there was a spate of PSS staff putting protection in the wrong place. The ODMs are out most nights doing assurance checks, very few issues arise now. What it highlighted was the use of staff unfamiliar with the area. A diagram is great, but trying to interpret that at 0100 around Waterloo, with no previous site visits, hardly a surprise it goes wrong. 

[Edwin_m]

6 hours ago, Ncarter2 said:

Having planned and used RRV’s, I don’t get how that happens. If the RRV can foul the adjacent line, it has to be blocked, even if it’s just for on/off tracking. If after taking a LB of an open line and the machine is put on the wrong line, I would seriously question those who briefed the team delivering and those carrying out the duties. To get to a point a RRV is on an open line says a lot for a section. 

Short block taken of Line A to allow the RRV to on-track for a longer possession of Line B.  RRV incorrectly put on line A and "confirms" block can be lifted.  

6 hours ago, Ncarter2 said:

On the southern there was a spate of PSS staff putting protection in the wrong place. The ODMs are out most nights doing assurance checks, very few issues arise now. What it highlighted was the use of staff unfamiliar with the area. A diagram is great, but trying to interpret that at 0100 around Waterloo, with no previous site visits, hardly a surprise it goes wrong. 

There still seem to be many near-misses coming through relating to possession irregularities, perhaps in areas where this sort of supervision isn't currently the management focus.  So I see it as entirely possible that sooner or later a RRV will be put on the wrong track.  The signs like the one posted above strike me as far less accident prone than a map.  It's very easy to be confused about which line is which or even which way is north when arriving at an unfamiliar site, and there have been incidents where someone has gone to completely the wrong access point.  The sign should help confirm location and whether the track to be accessed is the nearer or the further one.  

[hmrspaul]

I have photos of the signs by York Holgate Junction.

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brerner/eb945c26c

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brerner/e867c3d47

 

Paul

[Trog]

21 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

One particular case I was thinking of was where  a RRV turned the wrong at an access point near Burton. Attempts by signallers to contact the driver were ineffective, and I believe he finally stopped when he encountered a closed level crossing barrier, RAIB did produce a report.

Stop boards and dets are often placed in the wrong place; they're 'frequent fliers' in the logs.

 

I have seen the control log report for that one the signalman used points to divert the road railer into a siding to get it off the line. He was probably still patting himself on the back and thinking what a clever chap I am. When the road rail machine operator took his machine off the siding drove across to the running line remounted the rails and kept on going.

[Ncarter2]

13 hours ago, Edwin_m said:

Short block taken of Line A to allow the RRV to on-track for a longer possession of Line B.  RRV incorrectly put on line A and "confirms" block can be lifted.  

There still seem to be many near-misses coming through relating to possession irregularities, perhaps in areas where this sort of supervision isn't currently the management focus.  So I see it as entirely possible that sooner or later a RRV will be put on the wrong track.  The signs like the one posted above strike me as far less accident prone than a map.  It's very easy to be confused about which line is which or even which way is north when arriving at an unfamiliar site, and there have been incidents where someone has gone to completely the wrong access point.  The sign should help confirm location and whether the track to be accessed is the nearer or the further one.  

Strikes me as a lack of understanding and management around the requirements of ALO and COP0032. The process and subsequent briefings/site visits should prevent it from happening. As a previous SM, if any of my staff didn’t understand or could not reassure me they fully understood, they didn’t work. NTS and TS have also been brought it to further assess suitable individuals for training in specific competencies. With all the requirements needed, and process, if it happens then there is a serious issue. Any one that puts staff out to work has the responsibility to make sure they are under full understanding of what is required of them, contract staff or direct. 
The signs are great, routes I have worked in and my current, have these. As for the map, as good as the signs are, complex layouts just won’t fit, hence the use of detailed track diagrams and 5-mile diagrams. All ES staff I know use these as part of their briefings. Accessing at the correct location is down to the individual being sure they are in the correct location. Thankfully most access points now have suitable signage, those which don’t tend to be the lesser/minor access points. If your not sure, why would you even consider accessing?